Saved in childbearing... from what?

[James_Newman]

Are we then to propose that there many instrumental causes of salvation?

You would have to clarify what you mean.

 

[TCGreek]

You would have to clarify what you mean.

Seeing that it is difficult to make a distinction with just a cursory reading, is it not possible that there are other instances of 'saved' in scripture that may not mean precisely what we think of as being eternal salvation through faith alone?

1. Those are you words; the highlighted portion is my doing.

2. In the context our your disucussion, I was wondering if you perceived "childbearing" as another instrumental cause of salvation.

 

[James_Newman]

1. Those are you words; the highlighted portion is my doing.

2. In the context our your disucussion, I was wondering if you perceived "childbearing" as another instrumental cause of salvation.

Whether you want to say childbearing is instrumental, or just the continuing in faith, charity and holiness in sobriety, I don't think it matters. Are we saved by continuing in faith, charity and holiness in sobriety? Not in the ultimate sense, but there is a sense here in 1Tim where it says a woman is. So you could say that these things are instrumental in salvation, the only question is saved from what? Which oddly enough was the title of this thread...

 

[TCGreek]

Whether you want to say childbearing is instrumental, or just the continuing in faith, charity and holiness in sobriety, I don't think it matters. Are we saved by continuing in faith, charity and holiness in sobriety? Not in the ultimate sense, but there is a sense here in 1Tim where it says a woman is. So you could say that these things are instrumental in salvation, the only question is saved from what? Which oddly enough was the title of this thread...

You have made your point and that is good enough for me.

 

[James_Newman]

You have made your point and that is good enough for me.

What about this one?

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

What is this saved?

 

[TCGreek]

What about this one?

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

What is this saved?

That verse can mean anything you want it to mean, but would your meaning correspond to the biblical writers meaning?

 

[James_Newman]

That verse can mean anything you want it to mean, but would your meaning correspond to the biblical writers meaning?

I would ask you the same question. But nevertheless it is scripture and has to be dealt with.

 

[James_Newman]

No takers on this one, huh?

 

[lbaker]

No takers on this one, huh?

That is a HUGE can of worms you are playing with there. I'm already in enough trouble for now so I ain't gonna touch it.

Les

 

[DHK]

No takers on this one, huh?

Not if your just wanting to argue for argument's sake, besides that is another topic and has nothing to do with this thread. If you want honest debate on that verse in relation to baptism open a thread on it.
Get back to this topic. Be honest about.
If the answer to the phrase "saved in childbearing" has been fairly answered and is acceptable, let's move on. Why beat a dead horse? If you have legitimate questions ask, directing your questions to the passage and the topic. I think that the answer to the question, what does this phrase "saved in childbearing" mean has been fairly answered. Is there reason to keep going on and on?

 

[James_Newman]

Not if your just wanting to argue for argument's sake, besides that is another topic and has nothing to do with this thread. If you want honest debate on that verse in relation to baptism open a thread on it.
Get back to this topic. Be honest about.
If the answer to the phrase "saved in childbearing" has been fairly answered and is acceptable, let's move on. Why beat a dead horse? If you have legitimate questions ask, directing your questions to the passage and the topic. I think that the answer to the question, what does this phrase "saved in childbearing" mean has been fairly answered. Is there reason to keep going on and on?

I started the thread, I ought to know what the thread is about. It is about the different ways that the bible uses words like saved and salvation. I used the verse in the OP to start the discussion. If you want me to I'll start another one, but I think this one is doing just fine.

 

[James_Newman]

Here's another one.
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Would anyone apply this verse to eternal salvation? I think it should be patently obvious that there is some sense in which even believers need to be saved, and that it involves works.

 

[Accountable]

Here's another one.
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Would anyone apply this verse to eternal salvation? I think it should be patently obvious that there is some sense in which even believers need to be saved, and that it involves works.

You know where I stand dear brother! Pray for us, my wife will be having the baby soon! Pray that she will be saved!

 

[James_Newman]

You know where I stand dear brother! Pray for us, my wife will be having the baby soon! Pray that she will be saved!

Amen, my wife is coming along right behind yours. I pray they would all be saved!

 

[DHK]

I started the thread, I ought to know what the thread is about. It is about the different ways that the bible uses words like saved and salvation. I used the verse in the OP to start the discussion. If you want me to I'll start another one, but I think this one is doing just fine.

Here is your OP

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I'll say this, they is not the woman, the woman is she. Rather, they is probably referring to her children. She shall be saved in childbearing if they (her children) continue in faith and charity etc... So this saving is conditioned upon a woman raising godly children.

Your question seems to directed precisely at 1Tim.2:15 and the meaning of that verse. Is a woman saved in childbearing if she continues..."
There is no mention of any other Scripture or no mention of a more general question being asked that would refer to a salvation by works.

Can the word salvation be used in a different sense other than eternal salvation or spiritual salvation? I think most of us would agree that it can.

Lot was saved from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Noah was saved from the destruction of the Flood.
The very fact that there is a "sin unto death' would also inidcate if some get their lives straightened out with God, God would save them from a premature physical death.
I believe God has saved me from death many times. My time to die will not be here until God wants me to go home.
So, yes, the word saved is used many times in the Bible with a different meaning than "eternal salvation." But that doesn't seem to have any relevance on you OP, in the way that you stated it.

 

[James_Newman]

Here is your OP

Your question seems to directed precisely at 1Tim.2:15 and the meaning of that verse. Is a woman saved in childbearing if she continues..."
There is no mention of any other Scripture or no mention of a more general question being asked that would refer to a salvation by works.

Can the word salvation be used in a different sense other than eternal salvation or spiritual salvation? I think most of us would agree that it can.

Lot was saved from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Noah was saved from the destruction of the Flood.
The very fact that there is a "sin unto death' would also inidcate if some get their lives straightened out with God, God would save them from a premature physical death.
I believe God has saved me from death many times. My time to die will not be here until God wants me to go home.
So, yes, the word saved is used many times in the Bible with a different meaning than "eternal salvation." But that doesn't seem to have any relevance on you OP, in the way that you stated it.

I agree with you on all that you have said, but I also think that there is another sense that a believer needs to be saved that is not eternal salvation which is through grace by faith, and is not mere saving of the flesh in this life.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Is that saved from physical death?

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

What about that one?

More likely, the act of following Christ and keeping these doctrines would lead to the loss of physical life, as was the case for most all the apostles and many other martyrs.

 

[DHK]

I agree with you on all that you have said, but I also think that there is another sense that a believer needs to be saved that is not eternal salvation which is through grace by faith, and is not mere saving of the flesh in this life.

How about this Scripture then:

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

If one saves his life (physically, for this world), he shall lose it spiritually.
Yet if one will lose his life (give it for Christ's sake), then he shall save it (not necessarily eternal salvation for he was speaking to his disciples--but of the protection of Christ, and the rewards in heaven.)
Stephen was already saved. He lost his life for Christ, and in Christ. And yet he saved it. How? He was immediately taken into the presence of the Lord, and with great reward.

 

[James_Newman]

How about this Scripture then:

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

If one saves his life (physically, for this world), he shall lose it spiritually.
Yet if one will lose his life (give it for Christ's sake), then he shall save it (not necessarily eternal salvation for he was speaking to his disciples--but of the protection of Christ, and the rewards in heaven.)
Stephen was already saved. He lost his life for Christ, and in Christ. And yet he saved it. How? He was immediately taken into the presence of the Lord, and with great reward.

Why do you say that if one saves his life in this world, he shall lose it spiritually? What do you mean by that? You are more right than wrong when you say that the saving is related to the rewards in heaven and not eternal salvation. But would not the 'losing' of that life be contrasted to the saving? If the obtaining reward through suffering is called the saving of life, then wouldn't losing the reward and saving the life in this world be the losing of life in the next?

 

[DHK]

Why do you say that if one saves his life in this world, he shall lose it spiritually?

By spiritually I don't mean eteranlly.
I mean spiritual rewards.
We are constantly reminded in Scripture to run the race, to crucify ourselves, to deny oursevles, to take up our cross, etc. Why? That we may gain in a spiritual way. If we don't, but rather live for the world, we will lose in a spiritual way, but not in an eternal way.

 

[James_Newman]

By spiritually I don't mean eteranlly.
I mean spiritual rewards.
We are constantly reminded in Scripture to run the race, to crucify ourselves, to deny oursevles, to take up our cross, etc. Why? That we may gain in a spiritual way. If we don't, but rather live for the world, we will lose in a spiritual way, but not in an eternal way.

OK, so why is that called 'saving your life'?

Mark 8:34-36
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?