Saved in the Old Testament

OT saints, (all of them) were saved by faith in the promises of God.
NT saints (all of them) are saved by faith in the promises of God.

What is the difference?

OT saints, perhaps, did not clearly see that it was Christ who IS the promises of God

NT saints DO clearly see that Christ IS the promises of God.

Does that clarify? Any objections?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

AV Jim,

There was much more to the promises that were given to Abraham than a brief glimpse of future redemption that would encompass all races in the Church.

It is less than clear to say that "Christ WAS the promise of God" that Abraham believed and thereby received salvation. It may sound all Christological and good, but it is not consistent with a literal understanding of the very real and very tangible promises that were indeed given and that Abraham did indeed believe and accept at face value.

My objection is not quite as much with what you said as with where it leads.

Ray

 

Can you tell us anyplace in the OT where someone was told to put faith in that? Abraham was never told to put faith in his seed. His faith was in God that he would give him a seed. There is no evidence that Abraham or anyone else had faith in a coming Messiah.

Heb 4:2 does not identify what exactly was preached. You are taking a huge leap that is unsupported by the OT. We are never told that anyone OT person believed in Christ for salvation. In fact, the book of ACts records several God fearers who had to become Christ believers.

 

Where does the Bible tell us that anyone in the OT looked forward to the cross? Are you assuming an awful lot there?

 

__________________________________________________

Not quite sure what you are getting at.

Could you identify a particular statement I made with which you disagree as to where it leads?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Jim,

A good study on this subject, using LOTS of scripture to support the conclusions, can be can be found at;

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9000/The_Church_Is_Israel_Now.htm

 

A NEW LINE OF THOUGHT OF OT BELIEVERS

This topic sparked my interest and did some more research after the above post. I always believed that Adam and Eve were the first to receive salvation by grace but never saw it put as well as George Whitefield put it. Following is a small portion of his sermon text with minor changes for condensing purposes. The entirety can be seen at:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/Whitefield/WITF_001.html

Genesis 3:15 “And I will put Enmity between thee and the Woman, and between thy Seed and her Seed, it shall bruise thy Head, and thou shalt bruise his Head.”

This first promise must certainly be but dark to our first parents, in comparison of that great light which we enjoy: And yet, dark as it was, we may assure ourselves they built upon it their hopes of everlasting salvation, and by that faith were saved.

The first salvation by works by man.
Genesis 3:7 "they sewed or platted fig-leaves together, and made themselves aprons, "

…or things to gird about them. This is a lively representation of all natural man: we see that we are naked: we, in some measure, confess it; but, instead of looking up to God for succor, we patch up a righteousness of our own (as our first parents platted fig-leaves together) hoping to cover our nakedness by that. But our righteousness will not stand the severity of God's judgment: it will do us no more service than the fig-leaves did Adam and Eve, that is, none at all.

The first guilty conscience after hearing the voice of the Lord God;
(ver. 8) "They heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the trees of the garden, in the cool of the day; and Adam and his wife (notwithstanding their fig-leaves) hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God, among the trees of the garden."

God goes to man – not man to God.
Verse 9. "And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Adam, where art thou?"

Man’s first sense of humility and shame.
Verse 10. "And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

The first free gift of salvation by grace given by God. Adam and Eve do not ask for forgiveness, yet, God reveals the promise of a Savior to them. God is not covenanting with Adam, but is speaking to the serpent.
(Verse 15.) "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
Adam, after the fall, stood no longer as our representative. Adam and Eve became no different than you and I, whereby we can only receive the salvation by grace offered to us through our faith in the promise of it, (as they really did) and by that they were saved.

The first sacrifice for sins was by God not man.
(verse 21) “And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.”
Some further suppose, that Eve was the first believer; and therefore they translate it thus, "The seed, (not of the, but) of this woman:" which magnifies the grace of God so much the more, that she, who was first in the transgression, should be the first partaker of redemption. Adam believed also, and was saved: for unto Adam and his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them: which was a remarkable type of their being clothed with the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Where does the Bible tell us that anyone in the OT looked forward to the cross? Are you assuming an awful lot there? </font>[/QUOTE]No--nobody in the OT looked forward to the cross--that's a "gimmie", Brother Larry, for the obvious reason---that the Roman's were still off in the distant future---and once they would come along they would bring their devices of torture along with them!!

But the OT Saints did look forward to Messiah--God with us---and they did look forward to a sacrifice and a death and a resurrection---that's how they were saved---by faith looking forward to those glorious events---however they beheld those things in a "glass dimly"

Abraham believed in a death and resurrection---he received that truth by faith---and acted out that faith in the sacrifice of Isaac--

"By faith Abraham when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up even from the dead: from whence also he received him in a figure."

If Abraham looked forward to a resurrection---there must come something BEFORE a resurrection can take place----a death---a sacrifical death for the sins of the people.

Peter and the other Apostles spent a great deal of time early on in the book of Acts explaining to the Jews and pointing out the reality of that sacrifice as it was fulfilled through the cross of the Lord Jesus.

 

Faith in God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Although, I am confused by the last part of that statement that Christ was the basis for their forgiveness, I certainly agree with your overall sentiment. If they were saved by faith in God, doesn't that also mean that faith brought about forgiveness as well?

Do you understand my confusion?

Joseph Botwinick

 

What about Adam and Eve in the above post?

Can you not see that salvation is a free gift of God with the elect of the OT having faith in a future redeemer. Did Adam and Eve have a full and complete understanding of everything that encompassed? No, of course not! But, it was still "faith the size of a mustard seed." Same as the thief on the cross. How much did he comprehend? Scripture indicates very little, but what faith he had was sufficient enough for Christ.
.

 

It was the faith in God as he was revealed to them that saved them. Did their faith in God not give them forgiveness of sins as well?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Of course! Did not Christ say to the thief on the Cross "Today you will be with me in Paradise?" He did not say, "You must first get down and go to seminary to find out the details first."

God made for them garments of skins, and clothed them. Where did the garments of skins come from? An animal! An animal sacrifice.

 

Faith in God.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Joseph---Faith in Messiah = Faith in God because Messiah is God--and God is Messiah!

 

JoeB and TrailB,

Hebrews is clear that the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins. Only the blood of the Perfect Lamb of God could "take away" sins. The blood of bulls and goats provided a temporary covering until the Perfect Sacrifice offered Himself. TB, I have always maintained on this board that salvation is by grace through faith and that the shedding of blood/animal sacrifice is involved.

Jim,

My objection to your wording is based on the blending of OT saints and NT saints as being no different. Salvation after Abraham was vitally connected to his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. Gentiles who were saved were saved not based on general faith in a creator, but by specific faith in the God of Israel. An imprecise explanation of the concepts leaves loopholes and fallacies that are closed by clear and precise understanding of the Word of God. Your statement that OT saints were saved by faith in the promises of God fails to distinguish that the promises they believed were different from the specific promises related to the cross which are the objects of our faith. An overly broad generalization leads to problems.

I drive a car. A Volkswagon is a car. Yet, I do not drive a Volkswagon. An Oldsmobile is a car. Yet, I do not drive an Oldsmobile, either. Furthermore, a Volkswagon and an Oldsmobile are both cars, but a Volkswagon is not an Oldsmobile. If I fail to understand these distinctions we wind up with NT saints and OT saints both being saved on the basis of their own faith in the substitutionary atonement of Jesus. No way to establish that as the object of the faith of OT saints. Just cannot get there without forcing the NT back over the OT.


Blackbird,

Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Spirit is God. Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit. Jesus is the Messiah. The Father is not the Messiah. The content and specific object of faith is different in different ages under different covenants. Again, precision is critical and “Faith in Messiah = Faith in God because Messiah is God--and God is Messiah” is very imprecise, IMHO.

RJP

 

Faith in God.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Joseph---Faith in Messiah = Faith in God because Messiah is God--and God is Messiah! </font>[/QUOTE]I agree, although I don't think they probably understood that at the time.

Joseph Botwinick

 

If they both have the same engines you can get there by faith.

 

I never said that the blood of bulls and goats could save them. I said their faith in God saved them as the Bible teaches.

Joseph Botwinick

 

RJP--you failed to show me my imprecision! Straighten me out, please--but the way I figure--Jesus is Messiah, right??
Jesus is God, right??
So it stands to reason that Messiah is God and God is Messiah---seems the way you have it printed above

Jesus is God
The Father is God
The Spirit is God

Comes close to you saying there are three seperate God's and not God in Three Persons!!

Straighten me out!!

Blackbird

 

all sacrifices were about Christ, they were pictures of the coming ultimate sacrifice. All of the Bible is about Christ from Genesis to Revelation. The law and prophets were about HIM and I believe that He said that Himself. It is all about Him and about his sacrifice. What was his death for? It was not for future people, it was about taking back what the devil tarnished back in Eden. The prophecy of Genesis 3:15 is the purpose of the cross, the redeem man.

You have to ask yourself, what is the difference between Jews of the OT who we all agree were saints and the Jews today who the majority of Christianity agrees are not in God's will if they reject Christ as messiah and savior?