And what Scripture says this? </font>[/QUOTE]1 Pet. 1:10-12 </font>[/QUOTE]1 Peter 1:10-12 doesn't say anything about them looking forward for salvation. That simply isn't there. Go back and read it again. Christ was not made the content of faith in that passage. Try again.
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Saved in the Old Testament
- Thread starter Phillip
- Start date
Having devoted six weeks to the study of HEbrews 7-10, I can say with no fear of contradiction that no place in Hebrews 8-10 is there any place where the OT saint is told to believe in a coming Messiah for salvation. It is quite clear in retrospect that the pictures were important, but they were not the content of saving faith. And it doesn't take six weeks by the way to figure that out. All you need to do is read it. They had to offer the sacrifices in faith in God. We are not told they believed anything about the MEssiah.
It no doubt included revelation, but as was earlier pointed out, it was in types and pictures ... a mystery. We do not see any evidence that they had understanding of it. In fact 1 Peter 1:10-12 tells us that they didn't understand it. They didn't know the person or time, though they knew certain things about it. But interestingly and significantly, they are not told to believe in that information for salvation ... and that is the whole point here..
The content was about his heir and the Messiah was a part of that.
Not just types and pictures but also promises, even from the very beginning, of a coming seed. Was is still a mystery? Of course, but still the promises were there. What else did OT saints believe in? In other words, what is the counter-example of someone in the OT being saved apart from beleiving in those promises?
Andy
Hebrews is one on the first places I went when first hearing the OT people may not have believed in the coming Messiah for the purpose of forgiveness.
I am not going to tell you any scripture that you give me is not true. Are you going to tell me I have to take your word on any specific point to defend that “not one person has given any biblical evidence that an OT believer was supposed to believe in a coming Messiah for the purpose of forgiveness” Selah. As far as I can see any biblical information pertaining to that specific point was a mystery to the people in the OT, only being reveled progressively until the reason for His coming was given to us. Selah both those statements.
Hebrews 11:24-26, "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharoh's daughter;choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he has respect unto the recompence of the reward."
Christ==AnointedOne==Jesus==Messiah==Immanuel==Jehovah--ONE TRIUNE GOD foccused on that place called Golgotha--where The Lamb of God paid our sin debt--the debt we could not pay.
This is about the Sovereign Grace of God--from before the foundation of the world--not of works, lest any man should boast.
Selah,
Bro. James
Christ==AnointedOne==Jesus==Messiah==Immanuel==Jehovah--ONE TRIUNE GOD foccused on that place called Golgotha--where The Lamb of God paid our sin debt--the debt we could not pay.
This is about the Sovereign Grace of God--from before the foundation of the world--not of works, lest any man should boast.
Selah,
Bro. James
Gen 15:6 tells us that is what he believed that was counted to him for righteousness. It's pretty clear that the Messiah wasn't a part of that. </font>[/QUOTE]That's where you and Paul the Apostle part ways. He said the Promise was about Messiah, you say it wasn't.
And yet there is no commandment you can point to which required Abraham to believe even in the natural fulfillment of those things. Do you now see how irrational it is to demand verbatims like "believe in the coming Messiah," before you accept the fact that is indeed what OT saints believed?
It doesn't?
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Really?
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
You are a study in contradiction. You say in one breath that Christ atoned for their sins, and in another you insist, in opposition to the testimony of the Holy Spirit, that no faith was required in the One who made atonement.
Oh, wait! You believe the blood of bulls and goats really was effectual.
Bro James,
I still don’t see where it say’s, the context of Moses’ faith included that the Messiah was coming to pay for his forgiveness.
Aaron,
Saying only, "believe in the coming Messiah," would be irrational to demand verbatim if the part about, “for the purpose of forgiveness” was being left out. That seems to be the most irrational thing going on here to me.
Leaving out the part of it being revealed later I find irrational also.
(sarcasm) “Oh, wait! You believe the blood of bulls and goats really was effectual.”
It has been revealed to us that Christ paid for our sins, but what did they believe?
I still don’t see where it say’s, the context of Moses’ faith included that the Messiah was coming to pay for his forgiveness.
Aaron,
Saying only, "believe in the coming Messiah," would be irrational to demand verbatim if the part about, “for the purpose of forgiveness” was being left out. That seems to be the most irrational thing going on here to me.
Leaving out the part of it being revealed later I find irrational also.
(sarcasm) “Oh, wait! You believe the blood of bulls and goats really was effectual.”
It has been revealed to us that Christ paid for our sins, but what did they believe?
Job is another example of an OT saint who knew about Jesus: Job 19:25, 26:"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God".
Selah,
Bro. James
Selah,
Bro. James
Our great merciful God (extra praise today) has always been a redeemer of our souls from sin to eternal life. The way to salvation though I believe has changed although always been by grace through the shed of blood.
Job although I believe being perfect and upright (Job1:1) was already righteous and was speaking about being in God’s kingdom to come. I do not believe His faith was in the blood of the Messiah for salvation.
Lots of OT scripture shows saints knew something about the Messiah (a mystery until reveled), but their faith towards salvation was not in that He was coming for the purpose of forgiveness. It was not even revealed until later that the blood of Christ was a new sacrifice toward salvation.
Colossians 1:12 (KJV)
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Colossians 1:13 (KJV)
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 1:14 (KJV)
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
You just aren’t that good at picking a fight. Kidding.
Knowing this information is probably leading to rather or not there is a literal kingdom I’m actually still looking into any scripture I can find suggesting it was only revealed later as I can find none that says the OT saints looked forward to Christ coming for the purpose of forgiveness. Also how that fact would play into the, Proof or Not!
You apparenlty haven't read anything I said, and perhaps not much of what Paul said. Paul and I agree ... the Messiah was a part of the promise, but He was a part of it, not all of it.
What? God gave the promise and Abraham responded in faith to that promise. HOw much more simple does it get? God told him to believe it and told him what to do.
I totally reject the premise that it is irrational. You can't just skate by with suggestions and bad interpretation. You actually have to use Sciripture to support your point, and you haven't. There is no evidence that the OT saints believed in teh coming Messiah in order to be saved. It was not commanded, and we are not even told that they did so.
It doesn't?</font>[/QUOTE]No, it doesn't. Read your own quote: Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:. There is nothing there about what they believed for their salvation. THat was in fact about our salvation. That's what "grace that should come unto you" means. They were looking forward to be sure, but that was not the content of saving faith for them.
Really?</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, really ... Once again read your own quote: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Where in there does it tell anyone to believe in this coming Messiah for salvation?
Where did the HOly Spirit say that OT believers had to believe in the coming Messiah for their salvation? Go ahead, and show me that bit of testimony and then we can talk about it. Until then, you have shown nothing that is contradictory in the least. I have merely refused to add things to Scripture. If that is "a study in contradiction" then so be it. Perhaps it would lead you to a deeper study of God's word. Put down your books and quotes, and deal with Scripture.
Show the "testimony of hte HOly Spirit" that OT believers had to believe in a coming Messiah for salvation.
NO I don't. The Bible says clear that it wasn't (Heb 10:4). That was their act of faith. They believe that God would cover their sins through that sacrifice.Oh, wait! You believe the blood of bulls and goats really was effectual.
There is no atonement without Christ. He alone could atone for sins. But for the OT believer, they did not have that revelation. That revelation was progressively given to them until it culminated in the actual events of Christ's life and death, his active and passive obedience.
I really cannot, for the life of me, understand why this is confusing. You have yet to offer any Scripture in support of you. When you look at the passages you have attempted to use, they don't say what you apparently think they do. You have become so indoctrinated by someone or somethign that you don't seem to even be reading the text carefully. Please go back and think about what is actually being said.
Yes, but emphasizing the obvious progressive nature of revelation, we can clearly see that the Messiah was not the content of Abraham's saving faith.
There is no evidecnce that anyone in the OT was saved by believing in the coming Messiah. We don't even know that they understood the typology. That is why it had to be explained in the book of Hebrews. If it was so clearly understood, there would have been no confusion. The very existence of Hebrews mitigates against your conclusion.
But you're making it sound as if OT saints couldn't know or understand ANYTHING about the promises until they were fully revealed in the NT. Doesn't the very nature of revelation mean that there was something God wanted them to know and put their faith in?
Didn't Abraham believe the content of the promise? I'm not arguing that he had full knowledge of Christ or that he fully understood every type and shadow, but God did reveal SOMETHING about the Messiah to him, just as He did to Adam and Eve.
In Luke, Jesus ties the difficulty of understanding the promises about the Messiah to a lack of faith in what the prophets wrote:
And as I mentioned before, Acts 19:4 says that an Old Testament prophet (John the Baptist) told people to believe in the coming Messiah.
Paul even says in Romans 3 that the OT testifies to a righteousness of God that comes through faith in Jesus Christ:
You say that there is no evidence that anyone in the OT was saved by believing in the coming Messiah, but I have explicit Scripture that seems to say otherwise.
Andy
If that is what it is sounding like, then I apologize. That is certainly not what I am saying and I tried to clarify that. They knew something, and the farther we go through the OT, the more they knew. But that knowledge was never the content of saving faith. It was not "Believe in this coming Messiah and thou shalt be saved."
Yes, but there is not enough revelation in either place to be saved. Try preaching the gospel from Gen 3:15 alone, without any knowledge of anything else in Scripture. You can't do it. There is no mention of dying for sin, or belief. We get that only later. Same with the ABrahamic covenant. You can't preach the gospel from that alone. There is simply not enough information.
Indeed, but agian, note the complete lack of any reference to saving faith in that.
Assuming you are referring to Rom 3, that verse does not say that any one believed in that for righteousness. The Law and the Prophets certainly testify to a coming Messiah, but in them, there is no evidence that anyone believed in that coming Messiah for salvation. I too can quote a lot of Scripture, but that would be irrelevant to this point. The Bible simply doesn't support the notion that people in the OT were saved by looking forward to the cross.
Just my 2 cents
Luke 24:25 (KJV)
25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luke 24:26 (KJV)
26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Kinda proves they didn’t believe or understand it. Otherwise if they did Christ would have no reason to come.
Romans 3:21 (KJV)
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:22 (KJV)
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
But "NOW" the righteousness of God WITHOUT the LAW is MANIFESTED,
Luke 24:25 (KJV)
25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luke 24:26 (KJV)
26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Kinda proves they didn’t believe or understand it. Otherwise if they did Christ would have no reason to come.
Romans 3:21 (KJV)
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:22 (KJV)
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
But "NOW" the righteousness of God WITHOUT the LAW is MANIFESTED,
But that is exactly what Paul said he believed when he got saved.
I think Gen 3:15 is the gospel in undeveloped seed form, just like I think the promises to Abraham were a further revelation of the gospel (Gal. 3:8). People were saved by believing the gospel in the form that God gave it to them. I don't know any other way to understand what Scripture teaches.
I'll let you have the last word if you wish.
Andy