Saved in the womb...........

[Rev. G]

Scott (Hey brother! How are you? Good to "see" you on the Baptist Board.) and Latterain seem to have quite a conversation going here. I'd like to address (and hopefully dialogue with some others) regarding the issues of sin, choice, election, etc.

It seems that we agree that all are born into sin. Is that a correct assumption? The question I have is this - What does that mean exactly? How far does the power and penalty of sin extend?
Let's start there, and then deal with the others, if you don't mind.

Rev. G

 

[John Wells]

Romans 3:10-12 (NIV)
10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

It is God who saved us and chose us to live a holy life. He did this not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan long before the world began--to show his love and kindness to us through Christ Jesus. (2 Tim 1:9 NLT)

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (John 6:37 NIV) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 NIV)

Romans 9:14-22 (NIV)
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Psalm 139:15-16 (NIV)
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

Hhhmmmm . . . wow! Down right shames a few discussions and opinions going on here!

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Wellsjs,
I do not believe anyone is arguing *against* the doctrine of election and when it occurs . The issue is, does Gods election and regeneration occur at the same time or is it a different event?

Personally, based upon what the bible states, it is a different event. Election before the foundation of the world does not necessarily make one regenerate prior to the "born again" experience.

Also, the thread was started to show that God does save in the womb....if He so desires.



[ September 18, 2002, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[Rev. G]

Scott:

Sorry, I started to take it in a different direction, huh?

So, getting back to the original topic...

Election precedes regeneration, regeneration precedes faith (per the Baptist Faith & Message ).

Election occured before the foundation of the world, as you have pointed out. Regeneration occurs during one's lifetime (just prior to the initial exercise of faith). By lifetime, that includes life IN the womb (per Second London Baptist Confession).

Rev. G

[ September 18, 2002, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

[tyndale1946]

Romans 9: 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

According to this scripture regeneration comes after election... Brother Glen

 

[post-it]

I would still like someone to point out where election pertains to the individual. It clearly can be assumed as simply the group of believers in Christ, but not individually who makes up that group.

The hypothesis further is complicated in that it removes free will from the individual.

Predestination, I think if I remember correctly is not a good interpretation of the Greek word used, but rather foreknowledge is.

God can have knowledge of who will choose to be part of his kingdom, but God doesn't elect or position a person into his Kingdom.