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Saved, Lost, Saved Again.
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
Thanks for the testimony Nicholas! It seems you are not quite sure whether or not you were ever lost. If you was lost after you were saved then you would need to become re-saved. It is either or is it not? If you became lost, then you must have become re-saved. Or you never became lost after you were saved. What do you really believe?
It is your testimony.
God Bless!
Nicholas25
New Member
I feel I would have went to hell if I would have died before that early morning in Sep over 19 months ago. I know this sounds like lost, saved, lost, saved but Jesus only died on the cross for our sins one time. I personaly feel after we backslide on Christ we have to repent and return to that original salvation because after backsliding on Christ we have to go back to Christ if we want to get right with the Lord. There is no other way to get forgiveness of sin apart from Jesus Christ and the blood he shed on the cross. I realize how this sounds and I know I might get bashed pretty good for it but it is what I believe with all of my heart.
It sounds to me that you do not have a heart that wishes to Mock God, and that's outstanding. Keep the faith and I'm sure you will do well.
I have friend that left God completely, still knowing of Gods righteous desires, but does not was Jesus to be Lord of his life (This is very possible). But I have respect for my friend because Hes has not mocked God by saying to himself "Well, I'm okay with God no matter If I want Jesus as Lord or Not" and claim to be a Christian (Christ Like). I talk to him often and pray for him, but because of what He does know and because he abandoned the teachings His heart is no longer for Gods will.
He still conducts his "outside" life like a good young man that would seem like hes humble, but we know the truth.
Those who continue in unbelief can repent if they chose to believe again and be grafted back to the true vine.
False teacher tell you that how you live will only affect you stay here on earth. A false sense of security I would call it, because, it mocks the very Righteous nature of God.
I have friend that left God completely, still knowing of Gods righteous desires, but does not was Jesus to be Lord of his life (This is very possible). But I have respect for my friend because Hes has not mocked God by saying to himself "Well, I'm okay with God no matter If I want Jesus as Lord or Not" and claim to be a Christian (Christ Like). I talk to him often and pray for him, but because of what He does know and because he abandoned the teachings His heart is no longer for Gods will.
He still conducts his "outside" life like a good young man that would seem like hes humble, but we know the truth.
Those who continue in unbelief can repent if they chose to believe again and be grafted back to the true vine.
False teacher tell you that how you live will only affect you stay here on earth. A false sense of security I would call it, because, it mocks the very Righteous nature of God.
Don't worry too much about getting "bashed" here at this board. At times one may get alittle smug with you but for the most part 99% of the people are very nice even if their passionate beliefs are very different than yours.
I understand your "feelings", they are quite normal. I have had them just as I would bet most all Christians have had them. However, we must bring our feelings into reconciliation with God's Word and His promisses and precepts.
If you understand that God declares that no one can get saved, then lost, then saved again (Heb 6), then you must accept the fact that you could not have gone to hell while you were in rebellion against God's ways after you received Jesus Christ as Savior (regeneration).
It really isn't a matter of what you believe with all of your heart. God's Word stands and you could not have been saved, then lost, then saved again. What you experienced can only be defined as saved, backsliden, then a repentance to living the way Jesus Christ has shown you should live. Some struggle much, some a little, but all of the regenerated of God are predestinated unto the end (the Predestinated=OSAS thread may help you understand).
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God:
And Grace will lead you home to your Father God. Praise Him for His mercy and ability to keep you saved. It is not of yourself.
Your testimony proves that Christians(those born of God) can indeed fall away and "feel" that they were lost while away from the ways of God, yet come back into God's fellowship and "feel" saved again. But in truth(Heb 6) they were never lost. God had a hold of them the entire time, Praise Jesus!
Excellent testimony brother!
God Bless!
Yes you did and I challenged yor answers and you gave me the
If you apply Romans 11 to the born of God then you must say that these folks have been "saved"(grafted into Christ), "lost"(cut off for unbelief), "saved again"(grafted back in).
This is "saved, lost, saved again" and goes directly against Hebrews 6.
Therefore Romans 11 cannot be speaking about the individual person who has been "saved" getting "lost" and one should never refer to it as supporting scripture for the saved losing their salvation.
At best it is misuse of God's Word out of ignorance. At the worst it is seeing the error in using God's Word in this way, but continuing to do it anyways.
Romans 11 is refering to the Jews as a Nation, how they have digressed into unbelief, all but a remnant. Not that they all believed and then stopped believing, but rather that most of them rejected the righteousness of God and went about to establish their own. If they (as a nation) would turn from their unbelief God would graft them in again (as a nation). This is not individual salvation spoken of here...
Romans 11 is about the nation of Israel and the nations of Gentiles. When the fullness of the Gentiles shall come in, then God will lift the blindness from all of Israel which remains alive at the second coming of Christ and all of Israel will be saved in that day. Not all that was ever born a Jew(Paul preached that many are lost), but all that remain at the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ will believe and be saved.
God Bless!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Thank you for being willing to share that compelling testimony Nicholas! God bless your return to the one who is "The Way the Truth and the Life".
Sadly - you did not add "with cherries on top" to your testimony so those who look for ways to avoid this fact of life - will simply turn away from it.
What is more disturbing is that when the Bible points to the same example of those who have been saved - turning from salvation and experiencing "forgiveness revoked" -- many here will also reject it's teaching in favor of man made tradition since they do not find the "with cherries on top" addition to the text that they claim "would THEN cause them to believe it".
But as it is - with your testimony we have both Bible teaching AND real world life witnessing to this important Bible truth.
God bless you.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Romans 11 provides one of the most devastating Bible cases agains the OSAS error that one could ever hope to imagine for simplicity, direct and explicit reference and obvious meaning. It is so obvious you have to "Want to obfuscate it" to reject it by arguing "yes - but it did not say with cherries on top so I don't have to believe it".
I say it is time to leave the cherries on the table - and accept the Bible for what it says!
In Christ,
Bob
One blatantly obvious thing to ignore in this text in favor of "I am just looking for the cherries on top phrase to convince me" is the fact that Paul applies this rule in Romans 11 to BOTH Jews and Gentiles when he says "NEITHER will he spare YOU". This is so obvious and central that every review IGNORING it shows to the world that they are simply seeking the "with cherries on top excuse" as they eisegete the text away from the devastating case it makes against OSAS.
I say it is time to leave the cherries on the table - and accept the Bible for what it says!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. Romans 11 does not contradict Hebrews 6. BOTH the case of Saved-lost-saved explicitly stated in Romans 11 and the case of saved-LOST are facts of life.
A child may leave home forever doing drugs and joining thieves while still another child may return. 1 John 5 points to both at the same time!
Your efforts to pit one example against the other to avoid the inconvenient details that are highlighted in the text of Romans 11 (and in my post - and unnanswered by you in your respons) that so displeases man's traditions is not a form of exegesis. Rather it is a method central to eisegesis as it constructs an either-or-fallacy between two texts!
Your argument does not go to Romans 11 and DEAL with the problem "Neither will He Spare YOU" as it applies the in-out-in context to BOTH groups - to one as history and hope - and to the other as a warning - so you simply say "I get to ignore the problem of exegeting Romans 11 by thinking of Heb 6 and saved-then-lost without worrying about the SAVED-AGAIN problem of Romans 11!!".
The obvious "elephant in your living room" when you make that statement (a fitting analogy now that I am in Asia for a short while) is that
Both are devasting OSAS!
And BOTH scenarios are true!!
In Christ,
Bob
A child may leave home forever doing drugs and joining thieves while still another child may return. 1 John 5 points to both at the same time!
Your efforts to pit one example against the other to avoid the inconvenient details that are highlighted in the text of Romans 11 (and in my post - and unnanswered by you in your respons) that so displeases man's traditions is not a form of exegesis. Rather it is a method central to eisegesis as it constructs an either-or-fallacy between two texts!
Your argument does not go to Romans 11 and DEAL with the problem "Neither will He Spare YOU" as it applies the in-out-in context to BOTH groups - to one as history and hope - and to the other as a warning - so you simply say "I get to ignore the problem of exegeting Romans 11 by thinking of Heb 6 and saved-then-lost without worrying about the SAVED-AGAIN problem of Romans 11!!".
The obvious "elephant in your living room" when you make that statement (a fitting analogy now that I am in Asia for a short while) is that
Both are devasting OSAS!
And BOTH scenarios are true!!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As has already been stated the "saved - then lost" argument that you are making from Heb 6 totally defeats OSAS.
As has already been stated - the saved then permanently lost teaching of Heb 6 is true AS WELL as the "saved-lost-saved" argument that Paul makes in Romans 11.
JOHN ADDRESSES BOTH in 1john 5 stating that we SHOULD pray for the lost of Romans 11 but that the case of the Heb 6 lost is beyond fixing!!
How much more obvious can this be when it comes to OSAS utterly denied in scripture??
As has already been stated - the saved then permanently lost teaching of Heb 6 is true AS WELL as the "saved-lost-saved" argument that Paul makes in Romans 11.
JOHN ADDRESSES BOTH in 1john 5 stating that we SHOULD pray for the lost of Romans 11 but that the case of the Heb 6 lost is beyond fixing!!
How much more obvious can this be when it comes to OSAS utterly denied in scripture??
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
</font>[/QUOTE]I find it "interesting" that you try to make ME the author of the Romans 11 text and then pit Heb 6 "against ME" claiming that I AM the one saying "HE IS ABLE to graft them in AGAIN" in Romans 11 but Heb 6 is against me on that!!
How tragic that your eisegesis of Romans 11 must go to such extremes.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state.
But then.... it perishes.
IN the case of those WHO HAVE once BEEN enlightened!
(This is the view of the lost - in darkness ACCEPTING light such that they ARE enlightened - at least at one time).
AND have tasted of the heavenly gift
Not the description of the totally depraved lost.
AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
This is never the description of the totally depraved lost experience.
"AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY"
clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.
In Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.
Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –
Notice the first state of “The Heavenly gift” and “partaking of the Holy Spirit” is the state in which they are supposed to have REMAINED. They are never chastised for BEING in that state – as if that was still “the lost state”. Indeed falling away from “a lost state” could only have been a good thing.
On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?
Calvinists make a mockery of this text by denying it's clear meaning regarding RENEWING people back to Godly - genuine repentance and “tasting of the REAL heavenly gift” which is salvation itself.
As OSAS flees in derision when confronted with this devastating text against OSAS from Heb 6 the one “spot of bright hope” it draws from the text is that maybe by “drawing on what it does NOT believe in Heb 6 about being saved and then lost” it can find a way to defeat the text of scripture in Romans 11 as Paul ALSO highlights the fact of “Saved-lost-Saved” as God is able to “Graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief”. In other words the last desperate ploy of OSAS in Heb 6 is to simply accept what it claims to reject in that chapter and try to use it in an “either-or” fallacy against Romans 11.
But their failing here is all too obvious since in that tactic we note that NONE of that argument is exegesis of either Heb 6 OR Romans 11 of any kind!.
1 John 5 addresses BOTH the case of those who have fallen and are subject to return AND those who have fallen and are beyond return!! The OSAS camp simply “avoids the text”.
It is “obviously true” that a child may leave home and go into a life of crime NEVER to return – while another DOES return. The either-or “fallacy” argument of some in OSAS is that one truth can be used to defeat another while they reject BOTH TRUTHS!
In Christ,
Bob
You can state it all day long, but Hebrews 6 declares it impossible to be saved, lost, saved again. What part of "impossible" do you not understand? Everyone else here so far on the side of insecurity understands this. Why don't you?
If it is "impossible" then Romans 11 does not teach what you "think" it does! It is not my problem and it is not the Word of God's problem, I see the difference. You will have to go back and re-exegesis the passage. It is you who is erroniously trying to make the two say the same thing. Only you Bob, no one else here sees it your way, not even those arguing against OSAS.
God Bless!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As my previous post points out --
#1. your problem is that you reject BOTH Heb 6 and Romans 11. Your attempt to pit Heb 6 against Rom 11 are disingenuous at the very least.
#2. 1John 5 addresses BOTH groups just when you claim that BOTH can not exist!!
#3. PAUL is the one saying "God IS able to graft them in again" speaking of joining them BACK to the vine of Christ (see John 15 for details).
Would you really want to argue for "salvation outside of Christ" in your all-for-OSAS arguments?
In Christ,
Bob
#1. your problem is that you reject BOTH Heb 6 and Romans 11. Your attempt to pit Heb 6 against Rom 11 are disingenuous at the very least.
#2. 1John 5 addresses BOTH groups just when you claim that BOTH can not exist!!
#3. PAUL is the one saying "God IS able to graft them in again" speaking of joining them BACK to the vine of Christ (see John 15 for details).
Would you really want to argue for "salvation outside of Christ" in your all-for-OSAS arguments?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As pointed out alrady - taking one extreme that you do not believe from Heb 6 and using it as a tool against what you read and reject in Romans 11 is not a method of exegesis!!
you are simply using one thing you don't believe to attack another thing you don't believe. That is the tool of agnostics not valid exegesis.
Why do you find this so difficult to grasp?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
When Paul says "in the case of those" he is specifically identifying a subgroup - a certain class.
Rather than saying "all who fall away can never be grafted in again no matter what I wrote in Romans 11" (as our OSAS eisegeters would have it) Paul is more specific in Heb 6.
And "obviously" that "Saved-lost" scenario of Heb 6 is utterly rejected by the OSASers who seek to stretch the point bending it to use against the clear word of Romans 11 "HE IS able to graft them in AGAIN"!!
In Christ,
Bob