Saved souls

I have already explained the seeds to you before so I won't repeat myself.

Jesus himself explained the seeds. Any other explanation is extra Biblical.

Luke 8
11
""Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12
""Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13
""Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14
""The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15
""But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.


As Jesus says, the seed is the word of God, what we call the gospel.

Verse 12 states that the seeds thrown on the path represent people who never believed the word of God.

In verse 13, Jesus says that the people who are represented by the rocky soil are people who receive the word of God with joy and believe. To say that they didn't actually believe correctly is extra Biblical. Don't you think that Jesus would have made that distinction if He meant that distinction? To say anything about what these people believed, is to try to figure out what Jesus 'really meant'.

In verse 14 Jesus talks about another group who 'hear' the word of God. These people must also believe, since only the ones on the road are ones who never believe.

In verses 13 and 14, Jesus gives the reasons why some people at some point in their lives believe the gospel, yet reject it and are not saved.

In verse 15 Jesus describes the elect.

Lorelei, you will have to forgive me if I believe Jesus' version over yours.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
I am astounded that anyone is offended by the fact that salvation is God's own life within the person's soul, making that person a new creature in Christ Jesus.
What do you think 2 Pt 1,4 is refering to in the statement "partakers of the divine nature"? And Gal 4,19 "Christ formed in you."
And other like verses about abiding in Christ and He abiding in us? Also, Gal 2,20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." Do you not have Christ Jesus living in you, making you a new creature? Isn't that what the Christian life is, Christ living in us and us in Him?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pauline the way you pull these Scriptures out of their context you sound like a humanist, who in their manifesto, says that there is a spark of divinity in every one of us. The New Ager says to look at the god within you. Even Benny Hinn says that we are all little gods running around on this earth. The verses are all taken out of context. You are trying to force your own presupposed beliefs into them.
DHK

 

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

DHK said:
"Pauline the way you pull these Scriptures out of their context you sound like a humanist, who in their manifesto, says that there is a spark of divinity in every one of us. The New Ager says to look at the god within you. Even Benny Hinn says that we are all little gods running around on this earth. The verses are all taken out of context. You are trying to force your own presupposed beliefs into them."

(I knew you were hiding out somewhere. You're in good company with Briguy and Michael Wrenn)

By the way, I didn't know someone who is a humanist would think themselves as having "a spark of divinity" within them. A divine humanist is kind of like an oxymoron. N'est pas?

Read Pauline's posting again please!!!!:

"Originally posted by Pauline:
I am astounded that anyone is offended by the fact that salvation is God's own life within the person's soul, making that person a new creature in Christ Jesus." (By the way 2 Corinthians 5:17 states this for true Christians. Do humanists believe this or are you going to accuse me of pulling Scriptures out of context too?)

"What do you think 2 Pt 1,4 is refering to in the statement "partakers of the divine nature"? And Gal 4,19 "Christ formed in you."
And other like verses about abiding in Christ and He abiding in us?"
(Do humanists believe this too? What is your opinion of these texts?)

"Also, Gal 2,20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." Do you not have Christ Jesus living in you, making you a new creature? Isn't that what the Christian life is, Christ living in us and us in Him?"

(I still fail to see how humanists would believe this when Scripture is plainly speaking of the Christian. I am trying to understand your logic in this. Please help me)

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:

Lorelei, you will have to forgive me if I believe Jesus' version over yours.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I would want you to believe the Word over me. What Jesus said does not contradict what I was saying.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:

To say that they didn't actually believe correctly is extra Biblical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:

In verse 14 Jesus talks about another group who 'hear' the word of God. These people must also believe, since only the ones on the road are ones who never believe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They Must also believe? Jesus didn't say they did and in your own words wouldn't "Any other explanation be extra Biblical"?

The seed is indeed the Word of God and the soil represents all people. Each type of soil represents different types of people and the good soil is the elect.

If you notice throughout the whole passage no one could change what soil they planted thier seed in. Once it was planted in good soil, then it was there forever more bearing fruit.

~Lorelei

 

The offending post of Pauline (to which both Lorelei and Briguy took note of) said: “What saves people is God's life within them because He is life and holiness. And God gives that share in His life at baptism.”

These are the supporting verses that she used to justify this position.
“What do you think 2 Pt 1,4 is refering to in the statement "partakers of the divine nature"? And Gal 4,19 "Christ formed in you."
And other like verses about abiding in Christ and He abiding in us? Also, Gal 2,20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." Do you not have Christ Jesus living in you, making you a new creature? Isn't that what the Christian life is, Christ living in us and us in Him?” (Pauline)

2 Pet.1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
“Whereby” is a connective. It refers back to the verses just preceding this one. To fully understand verse four, you must know what is being said in verses two and three.
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Grace and peace are multiplied to us through the knowledge of God. An infant does not have the knowledge of God. According as his divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of God. He has given us all things, all things that pertain to life and godliness THROUGH the knowledge of God. This rules out infant baptism. It also rules out becoming a member of the Catholic Church. Whereby, he says. Whereby, what? Whereby (through that knowledge) are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises. Those promises are in the Word of God. That is the knowledge referred to, the knowledge that we now have of Christ. “That by these (promises) you might be partakers of the divine nature. Of what promise am I a partaker of the divine nature of God? Does church membership promise me this? NO. Does baptism promise me this? No. Of what promise am I a partaker of the divine nature of God?
I become a partaker of His divine nature when I become saved, that is born again by the spirit of God. Again this has nothing to do with baptism of any kind, especially infant baptism. John 1:12:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
When I received Christ as my Saviour, He adopted me into His family. I became His child. As it says in this verse “the power (authority) to become the sons of God.” He made me his heir, and according to Romans 8, I am not only an heir of God, but a joint heir with Jesus Christ. Christ, by His Holy Spirit, has come and taken up residence within me. Again, this has nothing to do with baptism or the Church.
One verse at a time. Yes I believe that I partake of his divine nature, but not in the same way Pauline does, and not in the same way the typical Catholic interprets this verse. It has nothing to do with Baptism. Salvation has nothing to do with baptism. Other verses I will explain later, as I have time.
DHK

 

Lorelei,

When Jesus speaks, He often said let those who have ears listen. When Jesus says that they heard, this means they actually believed it. Those who don't hear what is said aren't deaf, they just don't believe.

In any case, the people who are of the rocky soil type actually believe the word of God. They don't just believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they believe the word of God. There is no getting around the fact that Jesus plainly says that this group, who believe the word of God, will lose it. The word of God dies in them.

The scripture speaks for itself.

 

I was beginning to wonder, from the protests on this thread, if some here even believed in the indwelling of Jesus Christ in the soul of the believer. But, if I understand DHK correctly, he came around to saying he does believe in that and experience it. Am I correct in this understanding, DHK?

I don't believe that I took one of those scriptures out of context. I think the meaning is clear. Jesus Christ abides in the Christian and the Christian abides in Him. He is our Way, our Truth and our Life. That is the only way we can reach heaven. On the day of judgment, God will look at us to see if Christ is formed in us, Gal 4,19. That's what this life is: an opportunity to have Christ living in us and forming us to be like Him in how we think, speak and act. So the whole Christian life begins with and progresses with Jesus Christ indwelling the soul and making the person more and more like Himself. That is what fits us for life in heaven.

And this is the partaking in the divine nature, the walk in and with Jesus, the holy adventure. It is only through His Life in us that we can give up self and sin and become more fully that new creature which was born in us at baptism. It is the most intimate of all relationships. We are born again at baptism, then we must grow in maturity in Christ. And that is where scripture is a great help for it is profitable for this that we "may be perfect (mature) thoroughly furnished unto all good works", 2 Tm 3,16-17.

DHK, I did not intend to insult you when I said your theology is too narrow to include "intention". I did intend to state a fact and to make a point. So answer me truthfully: Does your theology include "intention" in one's worship? Do you believe God looks on the heart, on the intention of the person praying and bowing, etc., or not?

Please explain your thoughts on the following:
at baptism we are raised to "walk in newness of life". Romans 6. Scripture expresses it in differing words, but the same general idea of the person becoming new, made over, transformed in Jesus Christ. Scripture uses terms like: walk in newness of life", Ro 6,4, or being "made a new creature in Christ Jesus", 2 Cor 5,17, or "be born again of water and of the Spirit", Jn 3,5, that "baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Pt 3,21.

And Gal 3,27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

I make no apology for my assertion that the new life is implanted in the Christian at the time of baptism. I see scripture teaching the same thing. And it has been re-emphasized in my life over and over as my relationship with Jesus Christ has deepened over the years. It is re-enforced every time I renew my baptismal promises.

Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
Lorelei,

When Jesus speaks, He often said let those who have ears listen. When Jesus says that they heard, this means they actually believed it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hearing does not equate believing. Jesus tells us this in the parable of the builder.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matthew 7:24
Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man

26
But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hearing alone is not enough. You must put into action that which you heard. Jesus clearly teaches that there is a difference.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
The scripture speaks for itself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed it does.

John 10:27
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Tuor, I guess you and I will just keep this conversation up until we get to heaven and settle it once and for all. Even though we disagree I still like ya and enjoy conversing here on the BB. I just felt like I needed to say that. Sometimes I just keep writing it "as I see it" and that kind of makes me sound stand offish. Just wanted to make sure that was clear.

Ok, now we may now put the gloves back on....no not gloves, use a sword. Not just any sword, but THE Sword. The Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. As long as we have the right weapon we are on the right track!

Bless ya~

~Lorelei

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
I make no apology for my assertion that the new life is implanted in the Christian at the time of baptism. I see scripture teaching the same thing. And it has been re-emphasized in my life over and over as my relationship with Jesus Christ has deepened over the years. It is re-enforced every time I renew my baptismal promises.
Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pauline,
You need to take these verses in the context of the Bible, and not the Roman Catholic Tradition or Catechism. That is the problem here.
”Walk in newness of life,” applies only to a “believer,” that is one who can believe. You apply these verses to infants, and you apply them to baptism, both of which are wrong. I have never seen an infant (a week to a month) walk, neither physically or spiritually. Infants don’t walk! Infants don’t believe! Infants are incapable of having believing faith. That is why your verses are so greatly misused and out of context. Your presuppositions are wrong. No where in the Bible is there any evidence, anywhere, of any infant getting baptized. It just isn’t there. If you are going to stick to the Scriptures alone, avoiding church fathers and Catholic traditions, you cannot find a shred of evidence for these heretical teachings.
There is no new life implanted at baptism. Baptism gets you wet. It is a step of obedience in the Christian life. One first has to become a Christian (a believer in Christ), before he can be baptized. That discounts all infants. Baptism has nothing to do with one’s salvation, nothing! In Rom.6:3,4, it pictures one’s death to his old life and his resurrection to a new life in Christ. It is symbolic. It is a picture. Don’t be superstitious. There is no magical power in water to save you. The Hindus believe that when they wash in the River Ganges, that it washes their sin away. Your belief is similar, as is your belief in idols. I guess Catholicism is a lot like Hinduism. It even has more than one god (i.e. Mary).
In John 3:5, Jesus speaks of being born of the water and of the spirit. Water again is symbolic. No where in this passage is Jesus referring to baptism. There is no hint of that anywhere in this passage. The water here refers to the Word of God. Jesus said “Ye are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you.” (John 15:3) The Word here is used as a cleansing agent. It is symbolically used.

James 1:18 “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.” Here James says we are born again (he begat us) with the Word. If we are born again with the water and the spirit, the spirit we all know is necessary. The other agent must of a necessity be the Word of God. It is declared so here in James 1:18. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. Water is symbolic of Scripture or the Word.
1 Pet.1:23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” Peter again tells us the same thing, that we are born again through the Word of God, a symbol of water. We are not born again by water. That is something corruptible, something Peter just mentioned in a previous verse. We are not redeemed with corruptible things. Water is corruptible.
New life is never implanted at baptism, especially at infant baptism. The Scriptures don’t teach it.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
DHK, I did not intend to insult you when I said your theology is too narrow to include "intention". I did intend to state a fact and to make a point. So answer me truthfully: Does your theology include "intention" in one's worship? Do you believe God looks on the heart, on the intention of the person praying and bowing, etc., or not?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it is not the intention that God considers, Pauline. If a thief robs a bank, and tells the police that he had only good intentions of feeding his hungry family, and giving some of the proceeds to charity, what will they think? Does he get charged on his intentions or on his act? Sin is Sin, no matter what the intent is. It is never right to do wrong in order to do right. If God says it is sin, then it is sin. It does not matter what your intentions were. "Sin is the transgression of the law" (1John 3:4). That's not legalism. That's a New Testament verse that is talking about holy living. It is interesting that John ends that same epistle with these words:
5:21 "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen."
DHK

 

DHK.
I cannot prove from scripture that infants were baptized during NT times. You cannot prove from scripture that they weren't. The NT does say that whole households were baptized. And it is likely that some of those, maybe many of them, had infants. The NT certainly does not show baptism being done always on an individual basis. Whole families were baptized. And you cannot prove there weren't babies among them.

Jesus Himself instructed us to bring children to Him. I have read that, at least, one of those verses uses a Greek term meaning babes in arms. Perhaps Godmetal can speak to this?

There is no reason why God cannot infuse a share in His divine nature into the baby of a Christian couple to help them raise that child for Him.

And you cannot adequately explain away what scripture says about being baptism and walking in new life. And, that as many of us as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. The verses I quoted are meant to be taken literally and they have such force that they stand on their own.

You just don't want what they say to be true so you try to explain it away.

On the subject of "intention" -- do you think when a mother kneels before her little child and kisses his feet -- her intention doesn't matter to God? Do you think God sees that as idolatry or not?

Pauline

 

Lorelei,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>John 10:27
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I see you believe in the self apointed elect.

I am not talking about the elect, I am talking about those who are not apart of the elect, but at one point in their lives believe the gospel.

Or as Jesus says:

""Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus said they fall away. But some say there is no such thing as falling away. I guess those people choose to over look certain scripture.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

Tuor,

Then those people have no hope of ever coming to the Lord.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Hebrews 6:4
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6
if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course Hebrews explains who those are that fall away.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hebrews 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, `They shall never enter my rest.'"[1]
12
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hebrews 4:1
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
2
For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We need only rest in the hope of our savior who gives eternal salvation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Hebrews
5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

6:19
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure

7:25
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

~Lorelei

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Briguy:
Pauline, you said that DHK could not prove that infants were not Baptized. I can just by the following 2 verses from Acts (KJV)

"8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Please don't argue that if an infant had been with Phillip and eunuch that they could have done what the eunuch did. That is not logical and boarders on pure foolishness. I would rather you discount the scripture and say that verse 8:37 is not in some Bible versions rather then argue that an infant was capable of responding the way the eunuch did.
Pauline, I beg of you to read and re-read these verses with an open mind and really comment on them in pure honesty, even if that means saying you need to study more on it or that I am right and these verses do not support your position. Thanks in advance for your honest answer.

In our humble Savior,
Brian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian,

Do you read Acts 8:30-31 with the same eyes?

"And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him."

How do you understand Scripture if no man guides you? What man guided you into your understanding of Acts 8:36-37?

If you must rely upon another to guide you, how do you know who to trust? Who is correct? Who has the authority?

Or are we to discount this portion of Scripture?

Ron

 

Brian,
The baby cannot make a decision for Jesus Christ as his stage of life. You are correct there. But the family is a unit. The father and mother can make a decision to raise that child for Jesus Christ. And God honors that decision by giving the baby a share in His own life to help that child be spiritually aware and to continually make decisions for Christ as he grows. God also makes available to the parents the graces they need to raise that child for God. So God is very much with that family as a unit as well as with each individual in it.

This is connected to the sacrament of marriage in which God is closely involved with the husband and wife.

The case of the eunuch does not take away from the truth and reality of God bestowing His grace in a baptized child. The sanctifying grace the eunuch received is the same sanctifying grace a baby receives. And sanctifying grace works differently in individuals, according to their God-given missions in life. The grace works in the father to help him be the best possible father, in the mother to help her be the best possible mother, in the baby to help him be the best possible child of his parents. Anyone of the three can choose to cooperate or to rebel against God's grace.

And God's grace will be present to the child, to help him make the right decisions for Christ as he grows. That's the most precious of all gifts that parents can give their child.

Pauline

 

Brian, all those two verses from Acts PROVE is that THE EUNICH had to believe. It doesn't PROVE anything about infants, you, me, or anyone else.

You are confusing EVIDENCE with PROOF.

 

Lorelei,

Why the warning to not have a disbelieving heart, if one has no choice in the matter?

Why the warning if these people already believed at one point in their lives and according to 'once saved always saved' are therefore assured of salvation?

Perhaps 'once saved always saved' is not quite as biblical as some would make it out to be.