Saved souls

Brian, I can't disagree with the substance of your last post. Everything you say about Phillip is true.

However, I can disagree with your red herring of Clinton and OJ. Its very disappointing.

 

Brian, referring to anyone as Clinton is just asking for a knock-down, drag-out fight!!

Not to mention OJ . . . .

 

Brian,
I'm realizing in reading the above posts that we have different conceptions of the Christian life. Catholics have a strong sense of community. Our identity is that we are the body of Christ. Our Faith is a communal Faith.

When we go up to receive our Lord in the eucharist, there is a sense of family, of connectedness with one another, even with others that we've had some difference of opinion with. We've prayed the Lord's Prayer (forgiven everyone and asked forgiveness) and given the sign of peace (to demonstrate we are at peace with everyone) before the communion rite. So there is a powerful sense of unity with our Lord and with one another.

We celebrate our Catholic Faith by sharing in one another's spiritual journeys. And we particularly value the family. Our communal way is definitely the scriptural way: Jesus Christ was born into and grew up in the Holy Family. The Book of Acts reports that the earliest Christians baptized entire households. Paul refers to himself as a father to those he brought into the Church.
He writes of Christians as being of one faith, being one body. He wrote against schism and any dividing of the body of Christ.

When someone, baby or adult, is baptized, he is initiated into the family of God. He actually becomes a child of God. And the only way a human being can become a child of God is for God to place in his soul a share in the divine nature. This truly makes the person a child of God.

That's what salvation is, having Jesus Christ living in us and us in Him so that we become like Him -- He is formed in us. It is a lifelong process. Like a baby: first it crawls, then toddles, then walks, and then runs. This is a picture of the spiritual life, of the Christian becoming more like Jesus Christ, our Way, Truth and Life.

Pauline

 

Brian, I did address it. I agreed with the substance of that particular post concerning Phillip.

 

Pauline,
You said: “I cannot prove from scripture that infants were baptized during NT times.”
That is all that needs to be said. If you cannot prove it keep silent about it. Where Scripture is silent we must also be silent. We cannot read into Scripture that which is not there. That is what gets the Catholic Church and many other cults in so much trouble—they read into the Bible things that just are not there. If it is not taught in the Bible, not specifically mentioned in the Bible, no example given in the Bible, why do you presume that it is in the Bible? That is fairly large leap of faith—one that many of us call heresy.

Jesus said in Luke 18:16, “Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.” Allow them to come unto me. That verse indicates that the disciples were to allow the children to come to Jesus—on their own accord. There is no indication of a babe in arms here. But even if there were, would that change things any? Not at all. Such is the kingdom of God. To be received as a child, or even an infant who holds out his hands for his mother. Salvation is a free gift that needs to be received. Children of all people know what it is to receive a gift. It is only the adults, like the Catholics, who try to complicate things, and make John 1:12; Rom.6:23; Eph.2:8,9; all untrue by saying that you have to work to receive this gift of eternal life. You must receive it, like a child, freely. They don’t work for the things they receive. There is nothing of baptism in any of these verses.

You say, “There is no reason why God cannot infuse a share in His divine nature into the baby of a Christian couple to help them raise that child for Him.”
Yes there are very good reasons why God CANNOT infuse His divine nature into the baby of a Christian couple or any couple. He CANNOT go contrary to His Word. He will not do that which is against His will. You use human speculation to form the will of God. For example, “There is no reason why…” That is your reasoning. That is not what the Word of God teaches, just what your imagination is thinking. What does God say:

Psalm 51:5“Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
David admits that he did not have a divine nature at birth. It was anything but. In sin did my mother conceive me, he says, speaking of his sinful nature. It certainly is not speaking of God’s divine nature imparted unto him.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Here he says, that infants go astray from the womb speaking lies. What’s this about a divine nature? Sounds pretty sinful to me!

Jer.2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
Now look what God is telling Jeremiah. Even if you wash yourself with soap, and the strongest possible lye (nitre); use bleach if you want to, you will not be able to wash away your sins. Take all the water you want. Use the Atlantic and the Pacific put together. It still would not be enough water to wash away your sins, and you still would never have a soap strong enough to do the job. Any one who thinks that baptism washes away sin just believes in a silly superstition. All that water does to you is get you wet.

You are reading into the Scriptures things that are not there.
You are failing to take the Scriptures that are there at face value.
For example, What does it mean to: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, or;
”For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,” or,
”For if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved,” or,
”To Him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins,” or,
”But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”

In all of these verses there is no baptism and no works. You are saved by faith and by faith alone. Again I go back to your first batch of verses, which I claimed were quoted out of context and still maintain that they are. The reason is given above. Salvation is by faith, not by baptism, as the Catholic church teaches.

You say, “And you cannot adequately explain away what scripture says about being baptism and walking in new life.”
But I can explain that very well Pauline. The problem is that you won’t listen or accept my explanation. I have already said that a baby cannot walk: neither physically or spiritually. So how is this supposed to apply to infant baptism?? How can an infant walk in newness of life when it has total inability to believe or to walk. Are we making any sense here?
Regarding adults, water doesn’t make them walk does it? Water doesn’t impart newness of life? Water is H2O. Let us understand this very basic concept of life. There is no magical power in H2O to impart divine life, or newness of life. Baptism is a step of obedience taken by one who already has eternal life abiding in him. It is a step of obedience for a believer, one who has come to Christ as a sinner and trusted Christ for the forgiveness of his sins through the shed blood of Christ. It is something that is done AFTER salvation, and has nothing to do with salvation. In baptism there is a picture given of the old life being put to death, (“buried with him by baptism” Rom.6:4) and rising again to a new life (“walk in newness of life&#8221

Please do not read into the Scriptures that which is not there. Take them at face value as God intended them to be taken. We are saved by faith!
DHK

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Dear DHK,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Yes there are very good reasons why God CANNOT infuse His divine nature into the baby of a Christian couple or any couple. He CANNOT go contrary to His Word. He will not do that which is against His will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"He CANNOT go contrary to His Word"

You honestly believe that your understanding of a scripture verse limits God? ? ? ANd you alone know His will?

Although divinely inspired, scripture is the result of translations, the culture of the time, and what the writer was trying to convey. My God can do anything He wants. The law, scripture and sacraments were created for our benefit, not to limit God by the words of man, even if those words are inspired.

I'm certain that your God is the same. You are just trying to keep Him in a box of your understanding.

Grace and peace,

Uncle Ray

 

Brian, what you say about the eunich is true.

 

No, its not wrong to assume (and/or conclude) that is the case based on that one verse. However, as you know, I believe that assumption is incorrect based on other verses of Scripture.

The only thing that verse proves is in regard to the Eunich.

 

Brother Ray,
From my understanding of Scripture I am able to determine the will of God for my life. I also know God’s general will for all mankind from that same Scripture (that none should perish, that all should be saved). According to 1Cor.2:12, God has given me “His Spirit that I might know the things that are freely given to us from God.” God does illumine my heart with understanding of Scripture. I freely admit that without hesitation. If that is to imply that I am right and you are wrong, then so be it.
You serve a very cruel and vindictive god, if your god can do anything it wants. My God cannot lie (Num.23:19). My God cannot sin. My God cannot look upon or countenance evil (Hab.1:13). I am truly sorry for you that you serve such a weak and anemic god. For my God is the Sovereign Creator of the universe, holy, just, completely separated from sin, and yet a God of love and mercy at the same time.
God is indeed limited. For He has limited Himself by his very nature. Your arguments are as foolish as the atheists who argue: “Can God create a rock too heavy for him to lift?” The atheist thinks he has limited God, and proved that God is not infinite. Your reasoning is the same. It is illogical. God does not go contrary to His Word, and He does not go contrary to His nature.

Prove Scripture by Scripture. You cannot prove Scripture by your own reasonings and insults, but rather answer Scripture with Scripture.
DHK

 

Unfortunately, from work! It appears you and I are speaking a different language. Yes, the story of the eunich is EVIDENCE of requiring believer's baptism. It is not, however, PROOF.

 

Pauline,
You said: “I cannot prove from scripture that infants were baptized during NT times.”
---You finally agree with the Baptists. You have no Scriptural defence left?

 

DHK.
And, you can't prove from scripture that some of those "entire" households didn't have babies which were baptized. So you aren't any further along on proving your position on this topic.

But I do have support from tradition that the early Christian did baptize babies and therefore we know that their understanding of the apostles teaching included baptizing babies.

Nope, I still am Catholic in my view and far from the Baptist view on this topic. You didn't seriously think otherwise

BTW, please don't miss the last post on the Oral Tradition thread before Joseph locked it. It was such fun getting in the last word, that I don't want you to miss it.

Pauline

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]