Saved Without Knowing the Resurrection?

[Martin Marprelate]

So the thread is about how much truth it takes for a person to get saved. Or to put it a different way, is there a minimum of Gospel truth "by which we must be saved"?

I'm sure there must be, but I'm not sure we know what that is. "Nevertheless, the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "the Lord knows those who are His" ........' God will not leave His people at the mercy of false or inadequate teachers.
'...... and "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." There are those with a masterful head-knowledge of Christian theology who will not enter the kingdom of God because of their wicked lifestyles and lack of repentance (Matthew 7:21-23; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

 

[canadyjd]

The Gospel is truth, not formula. As such, it is powerful (Romans 1:16).

I'd simply say he was adding to the Gospel. Unacceptable.

The Gospel is that Christ died for our sins (substitutionary atonement), and rose again the third day for our justification. The burial proves the death, and the 500 witnesses proves the resurrection. As proofs rather than truths, they are not part of the Gospel, so other passages in the NT do not discuss them.

Well said.

I agree the gospel is truth and is powerful. I’m not sure I agree with your distinctions between what is “gospel” and what is “proof of the gospel”. I will have to ponder that a while.

I also recognize there is an interaction going on between God Holy Spirit, the person, and the gospel when a person moves from unsaved to saved.

This is the point I am attempting to make. God Holy Spirit cannot be forced to conform to how we think a person is “saved”. IMO, the initial moment of salvation is when God Holy Spirit indwells a person. We know from scripture that occurs in conjunction with regeneration (allows a person to believe in Christ) and “the foolishness of the message preached” which is Christ and Him crucified.

The Phillipian jailer is a good example. He certainly appeared to be under conviction of God Holy Spirit (what must I do to be saved?) Paul tells him to believe on the Lord Jesus. Scripture tells us he was saved.

I have no doubt that Paul explained in exacting detail about the cross, burial and resurrection. But, at what point did God Holy Spirit indwelling this man?

Scripture indicates when he fell to his knees and ask “what must I do to be saved?” Paul points him to faith in Jesus. Scripture says he was saved.

Concerning the OP, perhaps the best thing is to have a full presentation of the gospel as in 1 Corinthians 15, which includes the resurrection.

It may be an exercise in human hubris to declare God Holy Spirit is unable to accomplish salvation without mentioning the resurrection, even though the resurrection is crucial to understanding our salvation.

peace to you

 

[37818]

Okay, but these Scriptures do not address the OP, which is about how much truth must be proclaimed for a lost sinner to get saved.

It, I think, comes down to what does it mean for one to believe Jesus to be the Christ? 1 John 5:1.

 

[canadyjd]

…..
The Gospel is that Christ died for our sins (substitutionary atonement), and rose again the third day for our justification. The burial proves the death, and the 500 witnesses proves the resurrection. As proofs rather than truths, they are not part of the Gospel, so other passages in the NT do not discuss them….

I agree the gospel is truth and is powerful. I’m not sure I agree with your distinctions between what is “gospel” and what is “proof of the gospel”. I will have to ponder that a while….

I have pondered.. I agree the gospel is Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected. The burial is proof of the death. The appearances are proof of the resurrection. All is considered by Paul to be of “first importance”

Once again, I have been enlightened by your careful analysis of scripture, JoJ… thank you

peace to you

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The Gospel is that Christ died for our sins (substitutionary atonement), and rose again the third day for our justification. The burial proves the death, and the 500 witnesses proves the resurrection. As proofs rather than truths, they are not part of the Gospel, so other passages in the NT do not discuss them.

I disagree. Other passages in the NT do attest to them. Besides Paul's clearly stating in 1 Cor. 15:3-5 that the Gospel message includes all 4 truths, all 4 Gospels testify to all 4 truths (the death, burial, resurrection, and appearances of Christ). The record of Paul's evangelistic ministry in Acts 13 also explicitly shows that he testified to all 4 truths.

Acts 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

Furthermore, there is no biblical basis to hold that any of the apostolic company ever proclaimed the gospel without testifying to all 4 truths.

Moreover, Christ commissioned the apostles to be witnesses of His resurrection. Witnesses talk about what they directly saw and heard for themselves, which necessitated that they talk about the times that Christ appeared to them.

Because we are not eyewitnesses of the Resurrection, we must tell people about those who were the eyewitnesses of the Resurrection in order to proclaim the gospel properly.

Saying that the burial and the appearances are merely proofs of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection does not account for what Scripture reveals about their importance.

 

[percho]

No one denies the importance of the resurrection. The question of the OP is whether a person must understand and believe the resurrection occurred to be saved.

peace to you

I'm not absolutely sure one has to understand anything.


Does God save one or does, what one believes, save one?

From your post #42
I agree the gospel is truth and is powerful. I’m not sure I agree with your distinctions between what is “gospel” and what is “proof of the gospel”. I will have to ponder that a while.

I also recognize there is an interaction going on between God Holy Spirit, the person, and the gospel when a person moves from unsaved to saved.

This is the point I am attempting to make. God Holy Spirit cannot be forced to conform to how we think a person is “saved”. IMO, the initial moment of salvation is when God Holy Spirit indwells a person. We know from scripture that occurs in conjunction with regeneration (allows a person to believe in Christ) and “the foolishness of the message preached” which is Christ and Him crucified. end quote

Lets consider Paul:
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[fn] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. Immediately he preached the Christ[fn] in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

How much did Paul understand, concerning the gospel, at that moment, considering what Paul said in Gal 1:11-17 relative to the gospel.

BTW I fine very interesting that above from Acts 9 - Immediately he preached the Christ[fn] [ NU-Text reads Jesus. ] in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. - when considered with Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: and what Jesus had told Paul from Acts 9:5 I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:

 

[percho]

BTW I believe being indwelt with the Holy Spirit brings with it, belief and understanding over time.

Would like to ask a question to all of you especially those who understand Greek.

Is the aorist passive indicative 3 person singular of baptize in Acts 9:18 relative to when written or relative to Paul being filled with the Holy Spirit. I ask because I am wondering if baptized was speaking of the Spirit or of water?

Thanks in advance.

 

[John of Japan]

I'm sure there must be, but I'm not sure we know what that is. "Nevertheless, the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "the Lord knows those who are His" ........' God will not leave His people at the mercy of false or inadequate teachers.
'...... and "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." There are those with a masterful head-knowledge of Christian theology who will not enter the kingdom of God because of their wicked lifestyles and lack of repentance (Matthew 7:21-23; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

Wouldn't you call the substitutionary atonement a bare minimum??

 

[John of Japan]

I agree the gospel is truth and is powerful. I’m not sure I agree with your distinctions between what is “gospel” and what is “proof of the gospel”. I will have to ponder that a while.

I also recognize there is an interaction going on between God Holy Spirit, the person, and the gospel when a person moves from unsaved to saved.

This is the point I am attempting to make. God Holy Spirit cannot be forced to conform to how we think a person is “saved”. IMO, the initial moment of salvation is when God Holy Spirit indwells a person. We know from scripture that occurs in conjunction with regeneration (allows a person to believe in Christ) and “the foolishness of the message preached” which is Christ and Him crucified.

The Phillipian jailer is a good example. He certainly appeared to be under conviction of God Holy Spirit (what must I do to be saved?) Paul tells him to believe on the Lord Jesus. Scripture tells us he was saved.

I have no doubt that Paul explained in exacting detail about the cross, burial and resurrection. But, at what point did God Holy Spirit indwelling this man?

Scripture indicates when he fell to his knees and ask “what must I do to be saved?” Paul points him to faith in Jesus. Scripture says he was saved.

Good thoughts.

Concerning the OP, perhaps the best thing is to have a full presentation of the gospel as in 1 Corinthians 15, which includes the resurrection.

It may be an exercise in human hubris to declare God Holy Spirit is unable to accomplish salvation without mentioning the resurrection, even though the resurrection is crucial to understanding our salvation.

peace to you

Why could it be "an exercise in human hubris" to want to know exactly what to tell others when you witness about Christ?? I consider it good soteriology. I consider evangelism to be the laboratory for soteriology. Witnessing for Christ forces us to think through the message.

 

[John of Japan]

BTW I believe being indwelt with the Holy Spirit brings with it, belief and understanding over time.

Would like to ask a question to all of you especially those who understand Greek.

Is the aorist passive indicative 3 person singular of baptize in Acts 9:18 relative to when written or relative to Paul being filled with the Holy Spirit. I ask because I am wondering if baptized was speaking of the Spirit or of water?

Thanks in advance.

The aorist indicates the action as a whole. I think it is the semantics here that is important, not the syntax. In this case I believe it clearly refers to water baptism. The term used with the Holy Spirit in the context is "filled," not "baptized."

 

[John of Japan]

It, I think, comes down to what does it mean for one to believe Jesus to be the Christ? 1 John 5:1.

You do have a point here, if you will elaborate it. There is a real sense in which the message is Christ Himself. However, does that relate to the OP? Is the resurrection therefore moot?

 

[John of Japan]

I have pondered.. I agree the gospel is Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected. The burial is proof of the death. The appearances are proof of the resurrection. All is considered by Paul to be of “first importance”

Once again, I have been enlightened by your careful analysis of scripture, JoJ… thank you

peace to you

Glad to be a blessing!

 

[37818]

You do have a point here, if you will elaborate it. There is a real sense in which the message is Christ Himself. However, does that relate to the OP? Is the resurrection therefore moot?

Yes, the essentuals of Jesus being the man [virgin born], the Anoined [the Jewish King], Son of God, God, Savior, having paid for one's sins, risen [immortal man], [ascended] mediator. What minimum combination, may be more than one of these to satisfy knowing Him to be the Christ [the Anointed].

 

[Van]

In a class I discussed the Gospel and urged the students to make sure the resurrection of Christ was always part of their Gospel presentations/evangelism, because that doctrine/event is clearly part of Paul's Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15. Again, in the book of Acts the resurrection of Christ was part of the Gospel presentations recorded there.

Then I was asked by a student, "Can a person be saved without knowing about the resurrection?" I'm not sure I gave a sufficient answer. What would you say?

The answer, basic Christianity 101 is yes!

Anyone God chooses to saved, because God credits his or her faith as righteousness. Scripture clearly indicates belief in the God (Yahweh) that raised Jesus from the dead is a component of Christ's gospel. Thus according to Romans 4:24, it is belief in God, rather than belief in Christ's resurrection, that is required.

In Romans 10:9 scripture if we believe God raised (something already done) Jesus from the dead, you will be saved. It does not say if you did not know about this, such as OT saints, you cannot be saved. The OT saints could believe in God without understanding the mystery of Christ, and still be saved. Abraham's faith was credited because Abraham believed in God and that God would keep His promises.

Fundamentally, the idea of saying you must believe in "X, Y, and Z" to be saved is unstudied legalistic nonsense. God must credit your faith, as He knows your heart, and your commitment to and love of God is the essential. If we do not believe in God, or believe God rewards those who seek Him, seems necessary. Further, if we do not believe Jesus performed His miracles by the power of God, seems to be an additional component of our faith since the resurrection. In summary, we must believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[canadyjd]

Good thoughts.

Why could it be "an exercise in human hubris" to want to know exactly what to tell others when you witness about Christ?? I consider it good soteriology. I consider evangelism to be the laboratory for soteriology. Witnessing for Christ forces us to think through the message.

Because it focuses on the believers performance instead of focusing on God.

To think God Holy Spirit is unable to bring someone be to salvation unless we know “exactly what to tell others” is hubris, imo.

Please don’t misunderstand me. It is important to articulate the truth of the gospel, Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and resurrected.

Scripture mainly speaks of believers giving “testimony” to what God has done in their lives. In my experience, we have substituted personal testimony for a “formula”…” pray this prayer after me” acknowledge you are a sinner, ask Jesus to come into your heart. If you said that prayer, you are saved”

The Person I don’t hear you speaking of in this salvation “process” is God Holy Spirit. What is God Holy Spirit’s part? Must God Holy Spirit interact with each person in the same way?

You mentioned the woman whose culture was ancestor worship. This brought confusion into her mind concerning Christ resurrection.

When God Holy Spirit intervened in her life, bringing her to salvation by faith in Jesus, was it essential at the moment God Holy Spirit indwelt her that she fully understand and accept the resurrection of Jesus?

Or could God Holy Spirit convince her of the truth of that doctrine afterward, making her testimony more powerful to others with similar backgrounds?

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

belief and understanding over time.

11 He answered, The man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to Siloam, and wash: so I went away and washed, and I received sight.
17 They say therefore unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, in that he opened thine eyes? And he said, He is a prophet.
33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. Jn 9

 

[John of Japan]

I'm not absolutely sure one has to understand anything.


Does God save one or does, what one believes, save one?

The answer is "yes." God saves, but He saves through the truth of the Gospel. If you leave out the content of the message, no one will get saved.

1 Cor. 15:1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

The Greek in this passage, "by which also ye are saved," is the preposition dia (δια) with the genitive: "through which you are saved." This preposition often has the instrumental force, meaning it is the means by which something happens.

I agree the gospel is truth and is powerful. I’m not sure I agree with your distinctions between what is “gospel” and what is “proof of the gospel”. I will have to ponder that a while.

Excellent!

I also recognize there is an interaction going on between God Holy Spirit, the person, and the gospel when a person moves from unsaved to saved.

Agreed.

This is the point I am attempting to make. God Holy Spirit cannot be forced to conform to how we think a person is “saved”. IMO, the initial moment of salvation is when God Holy Spirit indwells a person. We know from scripture that occurs in conjunction with regeneration (allows a person to believe in Christ) and “the foolishness of the message preached” which is Christ and Him crucified. end quote

I will add that it was the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible. Therefore if someone were to say, "The message doesn't matter, the Holy Spirit does the saving" (I'm not sure this is you), they are forgetting it was the Holy Spirit who told us how salvation occurs: through the Gospel.

Lets consider Paul:
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[fn] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. Immediately he preached the Christ[fn] in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

Are you saying that Paul got saved then? I believe he was saved on the road when Jesus appeared to him. Jesus led him to Jesus!

How much did Paul understand, concerning the gospel, at that moment, considering what Paul said in Gal 1:11-17 relative to the gospel.

Since Paul was persecuting people for the sake of the Gospel, I'm pretty sure he completely understood it by the time Christ confronted him.

BTW I fine very interesting that above from Acts 9 - Immediately he preached the Christ[fn] [ NU-Text reads Jesus. ] in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. - when considered with Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: and what Jesus had told Paul from Acts 9:5 I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:

I too find it interesting.

 

[John of Japan]

I disagree. Other passages in the NT do attest to them. Besides Paul's clearly stating in 1 Cor. 15:3-5 that the Gospel message includes all 4 truths, all 4 Gospels testify to all 4 truths (the death, burial, resurrection, and appearances of Christ). The record of Paul's evangelistic ministry in Acts 13 also explicitly shows that he testified to all 4 truths.

Acts 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

Furthermore, there is no biblical basis to hold that any of the apostolic company ever proclaimed the gospel without testifying to all 4 truths.

Moreover, Christ commissioned the apostles to be witnesses of His resurrection. Witnesses talk about what they directly saw and heard for themselves, which necessitated that they talk about the times that Christ appeared to them.

Because we are not eyewitnesses of the Resurrection, we must tell people about those who were the eyewitnesses of the Resurrection in order to proclaim the gospel properly.

Saying that the burial and the appearances are merely proofs of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection does not account for what Scripture reveals about their importance.

Our pattern for how we present the Gospel must be the book of Acts. Where in Acts did anyone say that Christ was buried? Five times Acts mentions other people being buried, but not Christ.

Paul mentions the Gospel 13 times in Romans, but never once mentions the burial or the witnesses.

Paul excoriates the Galatians for having the wrong Gospel, but never mentions the burial or the witnesses in that epistle.

 

[John of Japan]

Because it focuses on the believers performance instead of focusing on God.

To think God Holy Spirit is unable to bring someone be to salvation unless we know “exactly what to tell others” is hubris, imo.

Who said this? I certainly did not. The question is not what the Holy Spirit is able to do, but what He chooses to do.

Please don’t misunderstand me. It is important to articulate the truth of the gospel, Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and resurrected.

Absolutely. We are commanded in the Great Commission to give the Gospel, not our opinion.

Scripture mainly speaks of believers giving “testimony” to what God has done in their lives. In my experience, we have substituted personal testimony for a “formula”…” pray this prayer after me” acknowledge you are a sinner, ask Jesus to come into your heart. If you said that prayer, you are saved”

I don't teach or preach this.

The Person I don’t hear you speaking of in this salvation “process” is God Holy Spirit. What is God Holy Spirit’s part? Must God Holy Spirit interact with each person in the same way?

1. I never said it was a process. It is not.
2. The OP was not about the Holy Spirit and His part in salvation. He has a huge part in salvation, but that is not the discussion here.

You mentioned the woman whose culture was ancestor worship. This brought confusion into her mind concerning Christ resurrection.

When God Holy Spirit intervened in her life, bringing her to salvation by faith in Jesus, was it essential at the moment God Holy Spirit indwelt her that she fully understand and accept the resurrection of Jesus?

She rejected the Gospel.

Or could God Holy Spirit convince her of the truth of that doctrine afterward, making her testimony more powerful to others with similar backgrounds?

peace to you

Well, of course, but that was not the OP. If you wish to start a thread on the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation, but all means go ahead. He leads, He empowers, He convicts, He regenerates, etc., etc. But that is not this thread, which is about the content of the Gospel.

 

[kyredneck]

belief and understanding over time

You ever wonder how long does it take to 'save' someone with the gospel?:

16 Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4

How much 'teaching' did it take to finally get Timothy and his flock 'saved'?