Saved?

Carson,
Most of the Church Fathers, including Chrysostom, who you just quoted, beleived in one or more heresies. That is a good reason not to go to the Church Fathers for our authority, but rather to the Word of God. So Consider Scripture:

Joh 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was with God, and the Word was God
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John says that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God, and He was made flesh, and John beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John saw that. I did not. You did not. But John did. He was there at that time, in that place in history, when God came into this world born of a virgin, lived among men, and died between two thieves, buried, and raised again the third day. John saw that; we did not.

You can make all the noise you want to about Christ being present in the eucharist and in the wine, but you will not be able to see his "flesh," nor his "blood." He came into this world once; died for our sins once; hung upon the cross once! It was a one-time event in the course of human history. To say that the actual body and blood of Christ is present in the bread and wine of the mass is not only deceitful and superstitous, it is blasphemous.

1Pe 3:18 "For Christ also hath ONCE suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

My God is not weak and anemic hiding under some piece of bread like you and your church fathers suggest. My God is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords. He is the Almighty Sovereign: omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, eternal God, who, though He has all power in Heaven and in earth, cares for me.
DHK

 

I posted my thoughts concernings works and being saved as related to the RCC dogma of sacramentalism but somehow my post disappeared (or perhaps it never made it but fell into the Baptist black hole on the way to the forum).

I'll repeat: Most baptists consider the RCC sacramental system a salvation system of works because they are deeds done by humans in order to renew or remain in the state of sanctifying grace.

To force the RCC words of "sanctifying grace" into the paradigm of the baptist salvation, baptists would probably say that sanctyfying grace is the result of being saved or being born again. It is a one time event and we remain in the state of sanctifying grace even when we sin.

We break fellowship with God but are not "un-born" when we commit sin.
We have our great High Priest and advocate with the Father to whom to confess our sins to renew that fellowship.
We are subject to His chastisement when we sin and even physical death when we commit a "sin unto death".

IMO, If we are saved today but lost tomorrow until we make a good confession to a human priest, then this is a system of works (unto salvation).

If any Catholic is genuinely saved by having trusted in the works of Christ alone then the sacraments are in reality unecessary for him/her to practice.

So yes we can be saved by the works of Christ in His Blood Atonement but the human sacramental system of works cannot save anyone.

HankD

 

The two true sacrements of communion and baptism are not human works, they are works of God. Humans can't save; Jesus saves.

 

Dear Ed,

Your objection is noted.

HankD

 

In the above statement, you refer to the most sacred Catholic belief as being blasphemous (the only unforgiveable sin), and state that your God differs from our God.

Are you stating that Catholics aren't Christian?

 

If this truly is the 'most sacred' Catholic belief, then Catholics truly aren't Christians!

The most sacred belief is that you can be saved by the grace of God, by having faith in His Son Jesus and believing that Jesus died for our Sins. THAT is the most sacred belief of any Christian (if we had to prioritize).

jason

 

So, the way we 'prioritize and THINK about the different aspects of salvation' are what DETERMINES a Christian from an only-thought-he-or-she-was-a-Christian? Sadly, you have reduced Christ's redemptive act on the Holy Cross, to an intellectual concept, that only those who think about it and prioritize it a certain way, can validate the ACTUAL ACT AND GRACE confered by the act of Christ. Poor mentally challenged people, who have Down's Syndrome. I'll bet they cannot concieve of your mental gymnastics. Are they too, doomed?, because they do not understand theology in terms that are pleasing to you???

 

You would not be saved if you believed that Christ was present in the breaking of bread but did not believe He died for your sins,did not believe he paid the price of my sins. I don't even see how this is an issue up for debate. Jesus was God, come down to forgive us of our sins. Whether or not the bread and wine actually turn into His body is NOT the way to salvation, which is the reason Jesus came to earth in the first place. To call the Eucharist the most holy of ideas is, as far as I am concerned, a slap in the face of Jesus. It trivializes what he came to do.

RE: Mentally Challenged

I never said that you had to follow my 'mental gymnastics', but I did say that you had to believe in Gods grace. Encompassing this is the idea that God is just and loving and will take care of His children, even those who can't make the descision on their own. Gods grace is encompassing enough to handle this.

Have you ever tried to explain Christ's love to someone? Have you ever tried to get someone to understand what He did for us? I have, and I can tell you I never once mentioned the Eucharist.

 

She was a sinful adulterous woman. He was the perfect Son of God. She, a guilty sinner stood before Him, the God-man. He was her Creator. She was a defiled creation. She was there to argue religion. He was there to command her how to worship. What would He say? How would He command her to worship? Before an image? By eating His flesh and drinking His blood? NO! The answer came: “God is spirit, they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). A profound, and yet simple statement. Worship God, and worship Him in spirit, for He is spirit, and does not dwell in a place made with men’s hands. He offers her living water, and says to her that if she should drink of the water that He gives, that she would never thirst again (4:13,14).
Now the question is, where is that H2O that Jesus was speaking of? Where could she find that water? Was there a well, a spring, that she could drink of? Is it still in existence? Can we also drink of it? After all He did say in verse 14, “whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him...” So where is the water?
If the Catholic Church is so adamant on taking the bread and wine literally, and not symbolically, in Matthew 26, why are they not consistent and do the same in John chapter four? What water do they drink of to have everlasting life (verse 14)? What was Jesus teaching? He did not say eat of me, that is to say, eat my flesh and drink my blood. He did not give her literal water to drink that would give her everlasting life. What then gave her everlasting life?

Dojo: "Are you saying that Catholics are not Christians?"
I would say this: A knowledgeable Catholic, like the apologists that come on this board, having a good knowledge of both Catholic doctrine and the gospel message, having chosen to remain a Catholic and thereby rejecting the Christ of the Bible, it is impossible for them to be a Christian. It is impossible to believe in the Catholic dogma and be a Christian at the same time. Having said that I may give my own testimony that when I was saved I remained in the Catholic Church for two years after I was saved. I suppose then you would call me a "saved Catholic." But I was untaught in the Scriptures and in such an occupation that I was not near any Christian to teach me. What I learned, I learned directly from my study from the Bible, with no other literature whatsoever. The Bible and Catholicism do not go together. They are opposing systems. Once I saw that I knew I had to leave. And I did. That is why I prefaced my remarks at the beginning to those who were apologists and already knew thoroughly about Catholic dogma and about the Biblical view of salvation--you cannot believe both and be saved. It is impossible.

 

Pauline,

I looked into this verse, and I believe that in its context, it is speaking of the redemption, or changing, of the body, not the soul. In other words, we have a saved soul and a changed
mind by our faith, but we await a new body to make all this effectual.

Isn't the hope of the Christian to one day be with the Lord? Well, we know that before that can happen, we must be changed.

(1 Cor 15:53 KJV) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

We have a hope that our bodies will one day be changed and of course we have the hope that when that does happen, we will be with the Lord.

Julia

 

Carson, what you are saying is simply not true. Catholics believe in infused grace. Catholic believe that we are not justified by faith alone by by faith and works and that you need works to complete you justification. Catholcs believe that it is your faith and your good works that save you. This is not so. You are saved by faith through grace alone and good works are a result of the faith. You do not need good works to complete your justification.

+ Grace alone + Faith alone + Scriptrure alone +

tulpje

[ March 03, 2002, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

 

Well, Adam, after I read Carlson's post on the first page, I went to the wels q&a because I knew that what he was saying wasn't true. That may not be acceptable "proof" here. I'm sure I could come up with something. Want to help me?

Mary

 

So far I came up with this from: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html#q12
Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation! Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies!

Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What Our Lord demands is ``faith that worketh by charity .'' (Gal. 5 :6). Read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity. The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself. (Mark 12:30-31). When the rich young man asked Our Lord what he must do to gain eternal life, Our Lord answered: ``Keep the commandments.'' (Matt. 19:17). Thus, although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfillment of the will of God. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that faith alone justifies. When St. Paul wrote, ``For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law,'' he was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, and he cited circumcision as an example.
The Catholic Church does not teach that purely human good works are meritorious for salvation; such works are not meritorious for salvation, according to her teaching. Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace--that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (John 15:4-6)--only these good deeds work toward our salvation, and they do so only by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ. These good works, offered to God by a soul in the state of grace (i.e., free of mortal sin, with the Blessed Trinity dwelling in the soul), are thereby supernaturally meritorious because they share in the work and in the merits of Christ. Such supernatural good works will not only be rewarded by God, but are necessary for salvation.

St. Paul shows how the neglect of certain good works will send even a Christian believer to damnation: ``But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.'' (1 Tim. 5:8). Our Lord tells us that if the Master (God) returns and finds His servant sinning, rather than performing works of obedience, He ``shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers.'' (Luke 12:46).

Furthermore, Catholics know they will be rewarded in Heaven for their good works. Our Lord Himself said: ``For the Son of man . . . will render to every man according to his works.'' (Matt. 16:27). ``And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.'' (Matt. 10:42). Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that ``every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor.'' (1 Cor. 3:8). ``For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints.'' (Heb. 6:10). ``I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming.'' (2 Tim. 4:7-8).

Still, Catholics know that, strictly speaking, God never owes us anything. Even after obeying all God's commandments, we must still say: ``We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do.'' (Luke 17:10). As St. Augustine (5th century) stated: ``All our good merits are wrought through grace, so that God, in crowning our merits, is crowning nothing but His gifts.''

Had St. Paul meant that faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, he would not have written: ``. . . and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.'' (1 Cor. 13:2). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle James would not have written: ``Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only'? . . . For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.'' (James 2:24-26). Or: ``What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?'' (James 2:14). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle Peter would not have written: ``Wherefore, brethren, labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.'' (2 Peter 1:10-11). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the primitive Christian Fathers would not have advocated good works in such powerful words. Wrote St. Irenaeus, one of the most illustrious of the primitive Christian Fathers: ``For what is the use of knowing the truth in word, while defiling the body and accomplishing the works of evil? Or what real good at all can bodily holiness do. if truth be not in the soul? For these two, faith and good works, rejoice in each other's company, and agree together and fight side by side to set man in the Presence of God.'' (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching). Justification by faith alone is a new doctrine; it was unheard of in the Christian community before the sixteenth century.

 

Originally posted by jasonW
________________________________________________

 

Read what you just wrote.

Those good works that Catholics speak of are those done WITH CHRIST DWELLING INSIDE OF US. After we receive that wonderful FREE GIFT OF GRACE, we LIVE IN THAT GRACE and DO GOOD THING in CHRIST'S NAME. If we do not do these things, then we did not receive that grace, for if we have grace, will we not follow in Christ's footsteps? To not live as Christ would have us live is to throw away the very gift he gave us. You said your self that works are evidence of grace. Ta da! That's exactly what the Catholic Church says. If you don't have these works, this evidence of grace, then you have not fully accepted that grace that Christ so freely gives.

Works are not neccessary because we do them. Works are necessary because it is evidence that Christ dwells within us. If we do not like "Christ"ian lives, then we are rejecting that free gift of grace.

 

To whom are you speaking? I think that my quote speaks loud and clear. This was published online from: The Augustine Club at Columbia University, Clearly a Catholic organization.

 

SALVATION INCLUDES THE MUSLIMS

841 The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

This is the most dangerous doctine of modern times.

http://www.wels.net/sab/frm-bel.html

This We Believe
I. GOD AND HIS REVELATION

We believe that there is only one true God (Isaiah 44:6). He has made himself known as the triune God, one God in three persons. This is evident from Jesus' command to his disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). Whoever does not worship this God worships a false god, a god who does not exist. Jesus said, "He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him" (John 5:23).

 

In the passage you just displayed, it said "...for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

The anti-Christ will not be "revealed" until Christ's second coming, for that is when CHRIST WILL REVEAL HIM, and yet protestants have "known" that the Papacy has been the anti-Christ since the 1500s. But, I can tell that I'm the only one who will see this contradiction...

 

tulpje,
Muslims worship the God of Abraham. Do you want to say you do not worship the God of Abraham?
Pauline