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tulpje,

All I can say is Amen! to the WELS synod position. The God of the Muslims is not the Holy Trinity and the WELS and any Christian church or denomination that refused to participate should be commended for taking a stand on Trinitarian orthodoxy rather than trying to be politically correct.

 

Let me poke my head in here quickly.

Firstly, check out this link. I think some of you might find it amusing and pertaining to the topic at hand:

God, Version 6.0

Secondly, DojoGrant, your 'reason' is rather pedestrian. If we have to tolerate everything to bring the good news, we wouldn't be Christians. Are we supposed to tolerate adultery just so we can reach adulterers? How about murder to reach murderers? Rape for Rapists? You see the point? Understanding does not have to be tolerating. Tolerating something means you accept it, which we cannot do. We can, however, understand something, as we ourselves are sinner and understand what it like to be lost and sin. Huge different.

The big difference is attitude. We can go to Muslims and let them know we think their religion is a false religion and do it humbly or we can do it arrogantly. Humbly is the way to go.

Thirdly, tulpje is correct. Those two statements of Catholic doctrine (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 161 and 841) are contradictory. Carson, do you have an explanation for this?

Fourthly, tulpje, Muslims do claim to worship the same God as we (Christians) do, and in a manner of speaking, they do. They do worship the God of Abraham (Who is our God), but they reject God in His three forms, so they don't fully worship Him. This is the same as Jews. They also worship Abraham's God, but they reject God in three forms and they have rejected the Messiah, Jesus.

Thanks,
jason

 

Hi jason! I was hoping that you would "poke your head in here". By the way, we are both from CT! It's a small state. Are you anywhere near Berlin/Kensington?

I absolutely agree with what you said about tollorance. That is not the way to bring someone to Christ, however, I have to disagree with what you say concerning them worshiping our God partially. You see, God has revealed himself to us in the Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity is one God. You simply can't disect the Trinity and remove the Father in order to say that they worship the same god. It's all or nothing. I don't know what denomination you belong to, but that was the reason for the Anthanasian Creed. It clearly says that you cannot seperate the three. Our triune God is complete. I have already posted this, but I will post it again. It is important that we believe this.

http://www.wels.net/sab/frm-bel.html
This We Believe
I. GOD AND HIS REVELATION

We believe that there is only one true God (Isaiah 44:6). He has made himself known as the triune God, one God in three persons. This is evident from Jesus' command to his disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). Whoever does not worship this God worships a false god, a god who does not exist. Jesus said, "He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him" (John 5:23).

Concerning the indugences, I believe the idea is that you have to buy your way into heaven with good works.

http://www.emmanuel-info.com/fr/dossiers/an
2000/indulgences-en.html
JUBILEE INDULGENCES
WAY TO THE FATHER’ S FORGIVENESS
HOW ? WHERE ? WHEN ?

Since Christmas there have been numerous testimonies of the joy of receiving the Jubilee indulgence ; requested either for oneself or for a deceased person. And there are in fact many ways of seeking this indulgence, all of them within our reach.

We have the example of a mother whose son suffers from a serious illness : on reading the Jubilee bull carefully, she discovered that she could offer up the time she devotes to the difficult treatment she administers to her son as a way of receiving the indulgence. She offered this indulgence for a person she knows and who has recently died. At this very moment a man has told me that he has just come from Saint Louis d’Antin – a church near the Gare Saint Lazare in Paris which is one of the eight churches designated by the Archbishop for the Jubilee. He made a pilgrimage to this church specially for a television personality whose death was announced a few days ago.

So, not only can we ask for and receive a Jubilee plenary indulgence for ourselves, but we can also request one and offer it for the souls of the departed. By doing this, according to the Jubilee Decree, we accomplish " a special act of supernatural charity, by virtue of the link through which, in the mystical Body of Christ, the faithful who are still making the pilgrimage on earth are united with those who have completed their earthly pilgrimage. " And do you know how often you can receive an indulgence ? Up to once a day ! So let us examine on what conditions and how to go about it ; where ? when ? how ?

HOW TBTAIN THE JUBILEE INDULGENCE

1° SACRAMENT OF RECONCILIATION (CONFESSION) IN ALL CASES
in addition to receiving the Eucharist and praying for the Pope’s intentions. It is not necessary to make one’s confession each time one asks for an indulgence. But we are asked " to receive the grace of the sacrament of Reconciliation frequently in order to make progress in the conversion and purity of our hearts " (Decree).
However, it is required that one should participate in the celebration of the Eucharist on the same day that one requests the indulgence (but not necessarily in the " place " of the pilgrimage. (See following text)

2° THESE TWO HIGH POINTS must be combined above all with witness to communion with the Church, expressed by prayer for the intentions of the Roman Pontiff as well as acts of charity and penance (see above). These acts should intend to be the expression of that true conversion of heart which leads to communion with Christ in the sacraments… "
" Christ is the indulgence and the victim offered for our sins ". The Holy Spirit " which is the forgiveness of sin " is poured into our hearts through the Eucharist and Confession ; he moves us to " a filial and trusting encounter with the Father of all Mercies ". The result of this encounter will find expression in " undertakings of conversion and renewal ", " ecclesial communion " and " charity towards our brothers and sisters ".

3° WHICH PILGRIMAGES TO MAKE ? WHICH CHURCHES TO VISIT ?

A – Rome :

Visit one of the 4 so-called " Patriarchal " Basilicas, namely :
- Saint Peter’s Basilica, in the Vatican
- The Lateran, Saint Saviour’s Basilica
- Saint Mary Major
- Saint Paul Outside-the-Walls
Also Holy Cross of Jerusalem, Saint Lawrence Outside-the-Walls, The Madonna of Divine Love, the Christian Catacombs.

B – Holy Land :
The Holy Sepulchre, in Jerusalem ;
The Church of the Nativity, in Bethlehem ;
The Church of the Annunciation , in Nazareth.

C – In every diocese in the world

1° The Cathedral

2° Certain other churches, chapels or places of pilgrimage designated by the Bishop.

4° WHAT TO DO IN THE CHURCH ?
- attend the Holy Mass
- join in a liturgical celebration such as Lauds, or Vespers..
- undertake a pious exercice such as the Stations of the Cross, the Rosary, the Hymnos Akathistos…
- or, outside of any common ceremony, a certain period of Eucharistic adoration and pious meditation, to be concluded by the Our Father, the Creed and a prayer to the Virgin Mary.

5° OTHER POSSIBLE WAYS (without a pilgrimage or visit to a specific church)
It is of course necessary to have made one’s confession recently as stipulated in 1° and to have received Holy Communion on the day. And, as stated in 4°, it is necessary to pray for the Holy Father’s intentions and to say the prayers of the Christian faith in order to show one’s communion with the Church (Our Father, Creed, Prayer addressed to Our Lady).

A. Visits to persons in need : The Sick, Prisoners, The Elderly and the Lonely, Handicapped people, etc.

B. Generous penitential initiatives :
For example, abstaining from superfluous things for a day :
like tobacco, alcoholic drinks ; fasting according to the general norms of the Church
and giving a proportionate amount to the poor.

C. Donation of a large amount to religious and social works. Particularly for the benefit
of abandoned children ; young people in difficulty ; needy elderly people ;
foreigners in the countries where they are seeking better living conditions…

D. Devoting a suitable length of free time to activities which are in the interests of the community, or other comparable forms of personal sacrifice.

 

AMEN Kiffin!!!! Praise the Lord that there are still some of us out here who won't compromise the Lord for the sake of "tollorance" as Jason says.

 

Hahahaha jason! Great site!

 

And you would be 100%, absolutely, completely, utterly, and couldn't-be-more wrong. Indulgences do no such thing. They never have. They never will. I have told you this over and over again, and you refuse to listen, which is saying what...that you have no desire to understand, but only to reject?

 

Tolerate has more than one meaning. You think I mean:

to allow; permit

I mean:

to recognize and respect (others' beliefs, practices, etc) without sharing them

I want you to name the homosexual person that you know has turned from their ways by you ignoring them, telling them how shameful and sinful they are, or condemning them. That makes people angry, and that is NOT understanding. Instead, you find common ground with them, share the Word of God, and let them know that we are all human and we all sin. Let them know that sin can be overcome and we can repent and turn to God, and then work with them on absolving a way of life that is hard to let go of.

This is even more serious when you talk about someone who does not believe in the Triune God. You don't barge in and tell them they're all going to hell. You don't segregate from them. You don't hold yourself in boastful esteem. You get over there and you work with them. Pray with them. Live by example. You share with them. you work with them. And then you spread the love of Jesus. You cannot understand where they are coming from until you have respect for them, treat them as equal in the eyes of God, and then share the love (not condemnation) of our God.

If that is pedestrian, then consider me in the crosswalk.

 

Grant: It's the first use of the law. I'm sure there have been a few. In my church, you will be excommunicated for such a thing. It is done in love to bring a person to repentance after much counseling to bring the person to repentance fails. It is not the same as excommunicating someone in the Catholic church. After there is repentance, they are welcome back. God does the same thing. If you are openly sinning, you are not with God, after you have repented, the Father welcomes you back with open arms.

Futhermore, I am not going by what you say concerning the indulgences. I have quite a few web-sites, like the one that I just posted that contrict what you are saying, and I believe that they are the greater authority.

[ March 04, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

 

I read through it, and amazingly, this is in support of a Catholic position.

SOFTER...
The Catholic Church is strongly against all of those, and there is excommunication from the sacraments for those who will not repent.

MIRACLES ON DEMAND...
Sounds like Televangelism to me...

2 BAPTISMS...
This is not a Catholic practice, but I know some of you have claimed to have been rebaptized!

NEW STRUCTURE...
Isn't it Protestants who are always preaching how Jesus completely rid of the Old law?

NO ABSOLUTES...
This was a reformation teaching. The Catholic Church is against this.

SIN EQUALIZER...
Mortal and venial sin. Need I say more.

I don't know what purpose in this discussion you posted that link, but that's more pro-Catholic than anything else.

God bless,

Grant

 

Then stop posting the whole article and show me specifically where it says that indulgences are "buying your way into Heaven." I've studied a great deal on indulgences, talked to Catholic priests, and read what the Catechism had to say. I also read your article(s). None of them say anything like this.

 

Catholic excoummuniation is the same thing, only sacraments are also involved. From the Catechism:

[1463] Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve every sin and excommunication.

In other words, if you confess that you murdered, are purposefully and willfully living in a life of fornication, and things of that serious nature, you will be excommunicated. Obviously, it takes a great deal of work to get back in, because if you are sinning seriously enough to be excommunicated, your repentance of those sins won't be immediate. It's a working process, but the excommunication can be resolved in true repentance.

 

Here is what the Church truely teaches about indulgences:

X. INDULGENCES
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."[81]
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."[82] Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[83]

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."[84]

Read it and reread it. You are already forgiven in and the state of grace when you receive an indulgence. Indulgences are linkes to penance and purgatory. If you go to purgatory, you will be in Heaven, and thus, no amount of indulgences get you into Heaven cause you're already headed there.

 

Ohhhhhhh..... I didn't know that.

 

Grant: That is aying that you need to do good works in order to recieve forgiveness. What is the difference bwtween that and making sacrifices?

 

Which line in what I posted says that good works give you the forgiveness of sins? I don't see it.

 

"He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man.""

 

I am sorry if I offended you, but I will stand strong with my statement. There has to be a line drawn. I don't tolerate (accept with respect) my brothers rather promiscuous ways. I don't tolerate (accept with respect) my friends swearing. And I don't tolerate people's taking the Lords name in vain. I have made it known that I don't want to hear stories about adventures, listen to crude jokes or have a conversation with someone using our Lord and Savior's name in such a tiny and disrespectful way.

At the same time, I live completely by example by not swearing, by not judging others, by living a hopefully Christ-like life (well, as close as I can get now. Hopefully in the future I will get closer and closer to Christ's nature) and by standing strong in my beliefs . Once I start to let one lifestyle in, I will have to start 'respecting' them all. If a Muslim asks me what I think of their religion, I will tell them the truth. If a friend of mine tells me he was looking at some good porn, I will tell him I think that it is completely wrong.

I am not better than any of these people, as a matter of fact, I know my true nature. I know things about myself that make me sick enough to vomit. But I also know I have redemption, something I wish someone had told me about long ago.

No one is talking about barging in and yelling "You're all going to hell!” that would not be the most productive way to get your point across. What I am talking about is understanding them (as I have said before), without accepting their beliefs (I don't have to respect them. I would never respect the Nazi beliefs).

The difference is, I will still/always respect individuals as humans and brothers/sisters, but I don't have to respect their views.

Christianity isn't about being goody goody with the world. We are told we will be hated by the world. We have vastly different viewpoints. Christianity is about being one with Christ, one with the person who the world crucified for teaching us about love, God and our own sinful nature.

A new Christian friend asked me about a topic similar to this this past weekend. I told him that loving someone unconditionally (as God does us), does not mean we condone or accept their actions/beliefs/ideas. We love them no matter what they do, what they believe or what they think/say etc etc. There is a HUGE difference between loving someone and accepting someone’s positions on issues. This is the point I think quite a few Christians miss in this "you're ok, I'm ok" 2002 worldview.

jason

 

I live in Hartford and work down near New Haven. Hopefully I won't be in Hartford too much longer.

jason

 

That's not talking about the forgiveness of sins. That's about changing your life to follow in Christ's footsteps, not your own sinful ones. Do what Jesus would do. Live in the faith. That doesn't once mean that you get forgiveness for these things. These are things for the penitant and forgiven man to do.

 

I live in Hartford and work down near New Haven. Hopefully I won't be in Hartford too much longer.

jason</font>[/QUOTE]Wow! We are really close! Do you drive 91 to New Haven or take the Merrit? You practically go through my town every day! My church is up by you in South Windsor. What denomination are you?

[ March 04, 2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]