Saving faith...or human trust...?

[JamesL]

Your....**yawn** was an honest inquiry?

Like I said..... I just cannot get anything from your off topic deep philosophical posts where basically you declare everyone in church history is wrong. Then somehow your one or two sentence offerings right the ship.
The fact remains many who are critical do not engage in the posts when it comes down to it.....

The fact still remains, that I engaged this thread with honest inquiry. Then after that, you come along blowing your "unanswerable" nonsense. That's the same retarded style Van came up with in another thread about people being blocked from entering heaven, then when honest questions arise he pretends there weren't any.

Now...
Do you have any interest in engaging honest inquiry in your own thread, or are you hoping everybody else will be led around blindly like you are? Do you want a real discussion, or are you simply looking for your your little friends to come pat you on the back for an "awe-inspiring" copy/paste job?

 

[JamesL]

Perhaps this is a valid argument.

However, in listening to preachers and teachers, more often they take the statement someone else made about a reference in which that person applied to "faith" and then using "faith" show that the use was not accurate.

For example:

Preacher Joe waxes eloquently about a passage that doesn't mention faith, but Joe uses the word faith throughout his delivery.

Preacher Fred, having a record of Joe's delivery, takes the same passages as used by Joe and shows that faith was not used in a Scriptural manner applicable to "saving faith" but some other attribute of human generated faith.

So, Fred has come up with a list of "faith."

I'm not sure I follow exactly what you're getting at.

 

[Iconoclast]

JamesL,

I have not looked yet, but I woder if any of these examples of "fake" faith are actually called faith in scripture?

I noticed the example "Lord, Lord..." in Matthew 7, but I've never seen where it is said they have faith

I noticed the citation of James 2:19, but that doesn't say anything about the devil having faith. Is that the extent of his argument? Make examples of those who are never said to have faith?

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
Belief, Believe, Believers

A — 1: πιστεύω
(Strong's #4100 — Verb — pisteuo — pist-yoo'-o )
"to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50 . Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers." See COMMIT , INTRUST , TRUST.

A — 2: πείθω
(Strong's #3982 — Verb — peitho — pi'-tho )
"to persuade," in the Middle and Passive Voices signifies "to suffer oneself to be persuaded," e.g., Luke 16:31; Hebrews 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4 , RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11 , "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24 , "believed." See AGREE , ASSURE , OBEY , PERSUADE , TRUST , YIELD.

Note: For apisteo, the negative of No. 1, and apeitheo, the negative of No. 2, see DISBELIEVE , DISOBEDIENT.


B — 1: πίστις
(Strong's #4102 — Noun Feminine — pistis — pis'-tis )
"faith," is translated "belief" in Romans 10:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:13 . Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer's relationship to Him. See ASSURANCE , FAITH , FIDELITY.

Note: In 1 Corinthians 9:5 the word translated "believer" (RV), is adelphe, "a sister," so 1 Corinthians 7:15; Romans 16:1; James 2:15 , used, in the spiritual sense, of one connected by the tie of the Christian faith.


C — 1: πιστός
(Strong's #4103 — Adjective — pistos — pis-tos' )
(a) in the Active sense means "believing, trusting;" (b) in the Passive sense, "trusty, faithful, trustworthy." It is translated "believer" in 2 Corinthians 6:15; "them that believe" in 1 Timothy 4:12 , RV (AV, "believers"); in 1 Timothy 5:16 , "if any woman that believeth," lit., "if any believing woman." So in 1 Timothy 6:2 , "believing masters." In 1 Peter 1:21 the RV, following the most authentic mss., gives the noun form, "are believers in God" (AV, "do believe in God"). In John 20:27 it is translated "believing." It is best understood with significance (a), above, e.g., in Galatians 3:9; Acts 16:1; 2 Corinthians 6:15; Titus 1:6; it has significance (b), e.g., in 1 Thessalonians 5:24; 2 Thessalonians 3:3 (see Notes on Thess. p. 211, and Gal. p. 126, by Hogg and Vine). See FAITHFUL , SURE.

Notes: (1) The corresponding negative verb is apisteo, 2 Timothy 2:13 , AV, "believe not" RV, "are faithless," in contrast to the statement "He abideth faithful."


(2) The negative noun apistia, "unbelief," is used twice in Matthew (Matthew 13:58; 17:20 ), three times in Mark (Mark 6:6; 9:24; 16:14 ), four times in Romans (Romans 3:3; 4:20; 11:20,23 ); elsewhere in 1 Timothy 1:13; Hebrews 3:12,19 . (3) The adjective apistos is translated "unbelievers" in 1 Corinthians 6:6; 2 Corinthians 6:14; in 2 Corinthians 6:15 , RV, "unbeliever" (AV, "infidel"); so in 1 Timothy 5:8; "unbelieving" in 1 Corinthians 7:12-15; 14:22-24; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Titus 1:15; Revelation 21:8; "that believe not" in 1 Corinthians 10:27 . In the Gospels it is translated "faithless" in Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; John 20:27 , but in Luke 12:46 , RV, "unfaithful," AV, "unbelievers." Once it is translated "incredible," Acts 26:8 . See FAITHLESS , INCREDIBLE , UNBELIEVER.

 

[Iconoclast]

JamesL

The fact still remains, that I engaged this thread with honest inquiry.

your post was vague....clarify which vs. in example 4 ....

Then after that, you come along blowing your "unanswerable" nonsense. That's the same retarded style Van came up with in another thread about people being blocked from entering heaven, then when honest questions arise he pretends there weren't any.

Others have noticed the complainers disappear when these links are offered. They cannot answer.

Now...
Do you have any interest in engaging honest inquiry in your own thread, or are you hoping everybody else will be led around blindly like you are?

What do you mean by led around blindly?

Do you want a real discussion,

If you have scriptural correction, or addition...offer it....if it is your personal musing's...save it.

or are you simply looking for your your little friends to come pat you on the back for an "awe-inspiring" copy/paste job?

My little friends are solid Christian brothers who I have confidence in....we can disagree, talk things out and edify each other....you mock it...that is your right to do so.

As far as my awe inspiring cut and paste jobs....I am not that smart, but I know many of these men who are very smart, and gifted by God.
Anyone of the links I post are more accurate and edifying than all of your posts combined, I have never seen anyone actual like any of your posts.....where is your "posse"???
Oh wait I forgot...only you can understand your own posts....I guess you can like your own posts.....I will not tell anybodyCautiousSickCautious

 

[Iconoclast]

Martin Marprelate

Half a million pages? That's what I call a large book!

Laugh

indeed!

Excellent points, as are the others, but these two especially are what Reformed Pastors need to watch out for within their congregations. A pride in having one's theology right, one's 'i's dotted and 't's crossed, but without a real love for and commitment to the Saviour who rescued us when we were lost in sin and clueless about salvation.[/QUOTE]
yes reformed type churches would be susceptible here as they do try and instruct the young people on these things.
Sometimes the children learn to outwardly comply, while remaining rebellious on the inside.

 

[agedman]

Half a million pages? That's what I call a large book! Laugh



Excellent points, as are the others, but these two especially are what Reformed Pastors need to watch out for within their congregations. A pride in having one's theology right, one's 'i's dotted and 't's crossed, but without a real love for and commitment to the Saviour who rescued us when we were lost in sin and clueless about salvation.

I'm not sure I follow exactly what you're getting at.

Martin brings a good warning to the more intellectual teaching / preaching that is typically found in the reformed churches.

And, as JamesL questions, are the statements actually using passages of "faith."

Today's market presents faith in so many variations the word has become a tattered garment torn by misuse and abuse, and by being pulled to this view or that view stretched to the point of being unrecognizable that even our Lord commented:

"However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?” Luke 18
​

Again, this is much of the catalyst for me moving to the word "believe." At least that word has not gotten so much play, and much fewer folks will take the word in a distortion.

One other comment comes to mind.

In another thread, I pointed out that often the word faith is and should be rendered as faithful or faithfulness. Throughout the Scriptures, the premium of God's working in a believer brings faithfulness.
Throughout the OT the word is "faithfulness." Even in Habakkuk 2, the word faith can and should be faithfulness. In the NT, the same is true. Each time the word faith is used, it nearly always is concerned with faithfulness. For example: Remember the time our Lord slept in the boat, and the storm came, the disciples were afraid, and the woke the Lord? He said, “Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?” That word can and should be faithfulness.

Here is the point.

The biggest tool the enemy of believers uses is doubt. It was that which he used in the Eden and that used in the testing of Christ. Every time a believer is tested it is generally over this one single area - doubt. Doubting the sovereignty of God, doubting the sustaining power of God, doubting the faithfulness of God, doubting the leadership of God... Doubt is all the enemy desires.

One who is faithful, who has a living of faithfulness, expresses that faithfulness in the manners in which the NT presents faith. The one passage that presents the Greek play on the word(s) is Matthew 8. The Lord says of the centurion, "“Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith (faithfulness) with anyone in Israel." He continues and says, "“Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed.” The words are similar and rooted the same, but there is a great difference in application. One cannot have Godly faith(fulness) without first having belief given by God.

Try this verse to see the difference:
"Without faith(fulness) it is impossible to please Him" Doesn't that fit with what James states that work is hand in glove with faith? That one cannot boast of faith and have no works? True faith is faithfulness.

 

[JamesL]

Martin brings a good warning to the more intellectual teaching / preaching that is typically found in the reformed churches.

And, as JamesL questions, are the statements actually using passages of "faith."

Today's market presents faith in so many variations the word has become a tattered garment torn by misuse and abuse, and by being pulled to this view or that view stretched to the point of being unrecognizable that even our Lord commented:

"However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?” Luke 18
​

Again, this is much of the catalyst for me moving to the word "believe." At least that word has not gotten so much play, and much fewer folks will take the word in a distortion.

One other comment comes to mind.

In another thread, I pointed out that often the word faith is and should be rendered as faithful or faithfulness. Throughout the Scriptures, the premium of God's working in a believer brings faithfulness.
Throughout the OT the word is "faithfulness." Even in Habakkuk 2, the word faith can and should be faithfulness. In the NT, the same is true. Each time the word faith is used, it nearly always is concerned with faithfulness. For example: Remember the time our Lord slept in the boat, and the storm came, the disciples were afraid, and the woke the Lord? He said, “Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?” That word can and should be faithfulness.

Here is the point.

The biggest tool the enemy of believers uses is doubt. It was that which he used in the Eden and that used in the testing of Christ. Every time a believer is tested it is generally over this one single area - doubt. Doubting the sovereignty of God, doubting the sustaining power of God, doubting the faithfulness of God, doubting the leadership of God... Doubt is all the enemy desires.

One who is faithful, who has a living of faithfulness, expresses that faithfulness in the manners in which the NT presents faith. The one passage that presents the Greek play on the word(s) is Matthew 8. The Lord says of the centurion, "“Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith (faithfulness) with anyone in Israel." He continues and says, "“Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed.” The words are similar and rooted the same, but there is a great difference in application. One cannot have Godly faith(fulness) without first having belief given by God.

Try this verse to see the difference:
"Without faith(fulness) it is impossible to please Him" Doesn't that fit with what James states that work is hand in glove with faith? That one cannot boast of faith and have no works? True faith is faithfulness.

Very well thought out, and I agree with the majority of it.

I, too, seen a correlation between Hebrews 11:6 and James 2 (even verse 19), though have never thought to insert faithfulness. But it does fit well with the remainder of that statement...And without faithfulness it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

I wholeheartedly believe James' use of "save" is not referencing the marks of conversion-like saving (as if to say if you've truly been converted that you will inevitably display some measure of works).

James was concerned with the future judgment of believers (2:12, 3:1) He wasn't questioning whether their faith was real, but it was fruitless. God is a rewarder of those [believers] who seek Him. James was saying "you believers are not seeking Him. If you were, we'd see it in your works."

Looking at James 2 as qualifying genuine faith by our works stands in stark constrast to Jesus' teaching about wheat and tares, wolves in sheep's clothing, whitewashed sepulchres, and numerous other ways of telling us that you can't tell believers from unbelievers by looking at externals.