Are you saying you are saved because of something you did? IE you believed. An active voice verb?
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Saving Faith vs. Human trust, or the forseen faith theory
- Thread starter Iconoclast
- Start date
John the Baptist had no choice whether he would be filled with the spirit while in his mother's womb. Paul had no choice at being separated from the womb to preach the gospel to the Nations. WE HAVE NO CHOICE:
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory before God.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Cor 1
Our names were written in heaven before the foundation of the world. It has never been in our capacity to resist that grace.
I am not saying that. I am saying I know I am saved because I experienced the conviction of the Holy Spirit and assented or stopped resisting that conviction. Calling for rescue out of conviction.
I didn't call out for eternal salvation and THEN get convicted.
Convicted first of course.
I know looking back on what I typed.. 'because I believed'.. well does look like it was my belief that got my saved and not Jesus.. but what does Romans 10 say?
What does John 3:16 say?
Conviction first of course.. then belief. But I don't see that conviction as regeneration before belief.
Believe- I mean-- 'change of mind, heart'.. not 'I will now turn from my sin and commit to follow you the rest of my life.'
God works the change.. convicts.. allows the person to believe.. but I don't believe He will save against free will.
I do believe though that once eternal salvation is given.. there is no free will to take or leave it.
This is not an arminian position.. neither is it calvinist. I firmly believe in eternal security.. but I believe that eternal salvation is called for.
Not merited on behalf of the believer.. but the believer responding to conviction.. 'assenting'.. I guess.
Anyways..
This is obviously a thread for monergists or calvinists. I think I'll leave it at this.
When was your will free? When you were lost wasn't your will in bondage to the law of sin and death? (1 Corinthians 2:14.) And after you were saved wasn't your will in bondage to the law of new life in Christ? (2 Corinthians 5:17.)
Another active voice verb (something you do)?
Jn 3:16 is a statement of fact, not an invitation.
8 And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Jn 16
One of the most misunderstood and misapplied passages in the scriptures, especially by the evangelicals.
17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. Jn 14
Oh, I've no doubt the Spirit convinced you of your need of the Savior, but there's a finality to that word 'convicted' that doesn't apply here.
You mention Jn 3:16, back up a couple verses:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;
15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. Jn 3
8 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21
Note that the brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten.
6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5
It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for the Savior.
360watt,
Anyways..
It is a thread for everyone but the others have nothing to say.Many sound off at caricatures of the position but as they get answered they disappear, one by one.
it reminds me of this in jn.6;
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Anyways..
[/QUOTE]
It is a thread for everyone but the others have nothing to say.Many sound off at caricatures of the position but as they get answered they disappear, one by one.
it reminds me of this in jn.6;
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
It is a thread for everyone but the others have nothing to say.Many sound off at caricatures of the position but as they get answered they disappear, one by one.
it reminds me of this in jn.6;
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?[/QUOTE]
Still here
Here is the question.. is God's sovereignty enough to allow men the freedom to choose or does men choosing to believe somehow negate His sovereignty?
The believing is not a work!
It's purely a response out of being convicted. Like someone drowning.. calling for a life saver.
That's not a work.. because it's the life saver doing the saving.
But on the predestination verses.. there are some key parts to this: eg.
Ephesians-- this is about a local church as a group. The 'we' and 'us' is a whole group.
So then part of the 'adoption as sons... being conformed to His will...' etc.. becomes about a group being conformed. Not completely individuals alone in their individual faith.
This goes hand in hand with God having set up His churches as the means by which believers grow. They become conformed to His will.. in these churches.
And the churches do have a pre-set destiny as 'the church age'. So pre-destiny is related to churches.
And then there is the other question.. how is salvation a gift if it is not recieved? If it just 'put in' someone.. it hasn't been received. That's forced. That is no gift.
There is a whole lot more to this.
Still here
God gave Adam a choice to make, and you see what happened. He ended up making all of us sinners even at conception.
Not from man. It is a work of the Spirit. Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”[John 6:28-29] Even the ability to believe is a work of the Spirit of God.
The dead in sin sinner is not drowning, he is already drowned, floating on top of the water, face-down. They do not, and can not call out. No more than those jumbled up bones in Ezekiel 37, no more than the widow's son in Luke 7, no more than Lazarus whilst laying in a tomb in John 11, no more than the 12 y/o girl who Jesus said 'Talitha koum!" in Mark 5. In all of these we see the same theme. The dead without hope, no will within them to make a choice to serve, love, honor, obey, cherish, God. However, once God had quickened them, they all acted positively to His commands. These are all pictures of the regeneration of the dead in sin sinner's spirit being quickened unto life, and they then seeking, calling, searching, loving, cherishing Him.
Already addressed this.
The predestination verses all are addressed to all believers. Some are not predestinated in the bible one way, and then we, the rest of the believers, are chosen in another fashion.
Individuals make up the body of Christ one person at a time. But Moses is just as much in the body of Christ as was all other believers
All believers will be conformed...not just those churches mentioned in the bible. You are fracturing God's word into 'this part is for them, this part is for those, this part is for they...'all verses are for all believers and are all applicable to them.
Again, the things said about churches during 'the church age' are applicable to the churches of today.
Who said God forces salvation on us? Who? If they did, show me the post and I will confront them.
It is like this. The unregenerate want nothing to do with God. They are His enemies. They hate Him. They are dead in transgressions and sins and want absolutely nothing to do with Him.
Now, who are those who love Him? Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.[1 John 4:7] Those who truly love God have been born of Him. Look at how Romans 8 states And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.[Romans 8:28] It is for those who love God that God works all the good things in their lives. Those who love Him have been born of Him. That is why the world(lost in proper context) hates Him, because they have not been born of Him. That is why I aver that not everyone loves God, because if they did, none would be lost. That is why I also aver that God does not love everyone, because if He did, none would die lost. There is such a sweet flow of harmony amongst the scriptures, it truly scares me to think how I once mangled them in my preaching. Oh but praise Him for His love, mercy, peace, and knowledge He bestowed, and is still bestowing, upon me.
Yes there is.
[QUOTE="360watt,
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?[/QUOTE]
Here is God's view of man;
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
...not of the will of the flesh...not for the will of man.. Good questions and you can see the scripture addresses each one.Thumbsup
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?[/QUOTE]
Glad you are still here!Still here
The problem is not with God's sovereignty...it is with fallen mans sin and rebellion.
Here is God's view of man;
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
If it is something you do apart from God it is a work that you do.....if it is God working in someone it is something He does.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
SG has correctly said we were not drowning but dead.
No...election is individual election unto salvation....when the individual eleect sheep gather it becomes an assembly of believers ....God places the members in particular in the body;1 cor12
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
No...we are individual living stones formed together Peter says;
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Church is not the building , it is the "assembly' of the saints.
This is a false idea with no scriptural support. Local churches do not have any preset destiny....on the last day the one true church will assemble for the first time.
We have heard this philosophical speculation before, but it directly goes against Jn 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
...not of the will of the flesh...not for the will of man.. Good questions and you can see the scripture addresses each one.Thumbsup
Glad you are still here!
The problem is not with God's sovereignty...it is with fallen mans sin and rebellion.
Here is God's view of man;
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
If it is something you do apart from God it is a work that you do.....if it is God working in someone it is something He does.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
SG has correctly said we were not drowning but dead.
No...election is individual election unto salvation....when the individual eleect sheep gather it becomes an assembly of believers ....God places the members in particular in the body;1 cor12
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
No...we are individual living stones formed together Peter says;
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Church is not the building , it is the "assembly' of the saints.
This is a false idea with no scriptural support. Local churches do not have any preset destiny....on the last day the one true church will assemble for the first time.
We have heard this philosophical speculation before, but it directly goes against Jn 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
...not of the will of the flesh...not for the will of man.. Good questions and you can see the scripture addresses each one.Thumbsup[/QUOTE]
I didn't mean churches as in buildings..
I meant visible local organisms of saved, baptised believers covenanted together to carry out the great commission and commandment. One of the churches is a local, visible assembly.. not a building.
Jesus and His disciples were the first church and had no roof over their head.
Church= ecclessia.. assembly.. if it ever loses the idea of assembling it is no church.
Anyway..
I think with this thread this is a key difference..
Much of what we are discussing is also related to what we are calling the body of Christ.
If it is every believer.. then election predestination verses can apply to it and it becomes about salvation.
If the body of Christ.. is a local body.. ie.. body at Ephesus.. body at Corinth.. body at Phillipi etc..
and NOT every believer..
Then you have election, predestination.. associated in part with churches. The other part being with the pre-set destiny of saved person going to heaven.
Aside from this.. I can't see how you can have regeneration before belief. Acts 16:29-31, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10..
These people are first drawn by the Father sure.. but they have the free will to resist or believe in Jesus. They are enabled to believe.. but that isn't regeneration before belief.
I didn't mean churches as in buildings..
I meant visible local organisms of saved, baptised believers covenanted together to carry out the great commission and commandment. One of the churches is a local, visible assembly.. not a building.
Jesus and His disciples were the first church and had no roof over their head.
Church= ecclessia.. assembly.. if it ever loses the idea of assembling it is no church.
Anyway..
I think with this thread this is a key difference..
Much of what we are discussing is also related to what we are calling the body of Christ.
If it is every believer.. then election predestination verses can apply to it and it becomes about salvation.
If the body of Christ.. is a local body.. ie.. body at Ephesus.. body at Corinth.. body at Phillipi etc..
and NOT every believer..
Then you have election, predestination.. associated in part with churches. The other part being with the pre-set destiny of saved person going to heaven.
Aside from this.. I can't see how you can have regeneration before belief. Acts 16:29-31, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10..
These people are first drawn by the Father sure.. but they have the free will to resist or believe in Jesus. They are enabled to believe.. but that isn't regeneration before belief.[/QUOTE]
Hello Watt,
Some progress has been made. We agree that local churches are the people assembling. We agree that the church consists of baptized believers.
360......you have to address the verses that speak of individuals called into the Kingdom.....called to be saints.
The scripture speaks of individual saints, and assemblies of such called individuals. You are ignoring the verses I offered you which are found in scripture.
You are eager to suggest something about what is your philosophy of man's will.......but you are completely ignoring what scripture declares about all men.
They are dead spiritually,do not seek God, and indeed cannot.
The word means they do not have the power or ability to do so,unless and until God has mercy on them.eph 2: 1-4.
You have to speak specifically to the whole condition of man, not just offer general philosophy such as your speculations on man's will.
You went to acts 16........in that chapter we read about Lydia ....whose heart THE LORD OPENED.......this is the same process ezk36:25-27 that each individual goes through.....
Zaccheus come down I must abide at your house.....
Nicodemus except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom. Each person is dealt with individually.
The destiny of all men is in Jesus hands Jn 17.
Watt take a moment and go over that which was already offered in the quoted links from the O P....you are ignoring the content all of which is directly from scripture.