"Saving Faith"

[Briguy]

SMM, Hope you are well!!

The notion of completing faith is still saying that the "works" or "acts" are what is saving the person. I am contending that the proof that the faith is complete is in the "works". The difference is that the faith may or may not be complete, even if a particular "work" or "act" is not present in a persons life at a given time. God sees the heart and already knows. We are the ones who are proved something too by a great act like Abrahams. Hope that made sense.

Rockyman, I do think it is fine to strive for perfection as long as we realize that while there is a flesh we can only strive but cannot achieve and so should not beat up on eachother for having short comings.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Eastmans:


Jude, I view justification as a one time event, based on the definitions above. For sure this is true in the NT Church but I believe that Abraham came to a time early on when he placed his trust and faith in God. It was the belief that justified him to God. What followed for Abraham was a life lived in faith because of a belief that God set in stone...
Jude, Jesus said that he who drinks of the water He gives will never thirst again – NEVER THIRST AGAIN!! - That sounds like OSAS to me.

First, the promise that we will never 'thirst' again hardly proves OSAS. We can always walk away from the Well.

It seems to me also, that your view of justification HAS to maintain OSAS. If OSAS is false (as I believe it is)then, if it is possible to lose one's salvation, one must also DO something to keep it. Of course, I believe that Paul/James/John AND Jesus never teach OSAS. Abraham's faith was not 'set in stone'...he was justified many times in his life. He 'endured to the end' and found salvation. So must we.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

My head hurts...

Glad I don't have to fully understand 'it' to be 'it' or in 'it'.

Might be cause my 'eye' teeth are missing and can't see what even I am saying anymore?

Thankfully, whether I work hard or not...

Whether I am OSAS or striving daily...

If I died right at this very moment I'd be with Jesus... No questions... No if's and or buts about it...

For He *is* my peace... He is my righteousness... He is my atoning sacrifice...

I am not a very good guest... I like to be busy... Help out... (even if I get under foot!) Not because I have to... Or, am obligated to...

But, because I want to get it done so we can sit and be together... And, it's often the 'right thing' to do...

 

[Briguy]

Jude, we have different definitions of justification. Mine fits the meaning that is more mainstream as I presented earlier.

Jude, tell me this: what do our "works/acts" do? What effect do they ultimately have?

Jude, your well point misses my point. Yes, you can walk away from the well but you won't thirst again because you only drink once. We stay near the well because of how thankful we are and the comfort it has brought but we only drink the water once and that is the whole point. No matter how far from the well I get I will NEVER THIRST AGAIN and it is that realization that will draw me back to the well and the fellowship that surronds the well, which since most stay close to the well there will always be fellowship to return to.

"endurance" verses must be read in context and not used as islands, please site verse and I will respond.

Endurance is a Christian characteristic.

SMM, hang in there man, this is a great topic, we will all be better for it in the end. Take care my friend.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Jude, we have different definitions of justification. Mine fits the meaning that is more mainstream as I presented earlier.

Actually, your view of justification came along 1500 years AFTER the Church was established. I don't think you can make this claim with any honesty.

Jude, tell me this: what do our "works/acts" do? What effect do they ultimately have?

They "complete" our faith. (James 2). It is the 'working out' of our salvation. We by Grace, are making good the promise that the old man will become 'new'. It's not all up to us, thank the Lord! But WE do have to participate...
Mark 13.13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Jude, your well point misses my point. Yes, you can walk away from the well but you won't thirst again because you only drink once.

Once? What about Judas? What about Ananias and Sapphira? OSAS cannot be proved from Scripture, and certainly not from any of the words of Jesus.

Lk.8.13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away

Paul warned Timothy...

1Tim. 1.19 ...(hold) on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

How can you 'shipwreck' a salvation that is always secure?

Heb.3.6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, IF we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

Heb. 3.7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, 9 where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’ 11 So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”

Heb. 3.12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ IF we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”

Heb. 4.6,9 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience....9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, MAKE EVERY EFFORT to enter that rest, SO THAT NNE WILL FALL by following their example of disobedience.

Luther didn't like Hebrews, and he didn't like James. I wonder why?

Heb.2.14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Heb.2.24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Jude...

When we say our Works complete our faith...

I think, maybe, where Briguy's head might be?

Is what happens if you get killed before one of these 'completing' works are 'completed'

Maybe 'Complement' is a better word?

 

[Briguy]

Complement is a better word. Thanks SMM.
-Brian

 

[Briguy]

Jude, people want to use the "shipwreck" verse to say OSAS is not true but they, including you, are forcing menaing on the verse that just is not there. Paul, I believe chose this word carefully. He himself had been shipwrecked three times, maybe more ultimately. His ship was broken but he survived. What Paul is saying is that our faith can become of no use when we lose mercy, as Paul describes just before, that Jesus had for him. If we hold fast to what we first believed and held dear when first saved our faith will prove to be of much worth. If we let it slip then we are open to doing wrong and our faith becomes as a ship that won't float, that is, of no use in forwarding God's Kingdom. The two men turned over to Satan in the next verse show that Paul was willing to let the men do wrong and so learn a tough life lesson and be restored to the worthwhile faith they once had.

I'll write more on other verses you used later. Remember that much of Hebrews is written to those who were of God by religon but not of NT saving faith.

More later,
Thanks for the nice discussion, Jude. I really appreciate your attitude. Its makes this fun to ponder,

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Jude...

When we say our Works complete our faith...

I think, maybe, where Briguy's head might be?

Is what happens if you get killed before one of these 'completing' works are 'completed'

Maybe 'Complement' is a better word?

If we are in grace, we'll be in heaven. 'Complement' might be a 'better word' for those who hold to sola fide, but it is not in the Greek text.

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Jude, people want to use the "shipwreck" verse to say OSAS is not true but they, including you, are forcing menaing on the verse that just is not there.

Actually Brian, I do think you're 'forcing' here a meaning that Paul did not intend. Paul is saying people can destroy their relationship with God by disobedience.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by Briguy:


I'll write more on other verses you used later. Remember that much of Hebrews is written to those who were of God by religon but not of NT saving faith.

All we truly know about this epistle is that it is addressed to the 'Hebrews'. Your last statement, "to those who were of God by religion but not of NT saving faith," is mere conjecture. What we do know, from this epistle, (written by Apollos?), is that those who are Christians are encouraged to STAY faithful, which included OBEDIENCE. The disagreement we have, as you know, is that you believe GENUINE faith exhibits good works. You also believe in OSAS. I reject the latter, and would say of the former that through Grace we are saved, and by Grace we are conformed to the image of Christ, and that done through our works. Our sins may be as high as Everest, but if we confess them, and repent of them (which is a 'work', BTW), that 'mountain' is immediately levelled, i.e. we are forgiven. We are justified. But, that is just the beginning. We are called to grow in grace. Every day, we are called to faithfulness. And every day, we face that choice. That's why we pray, 'lead me not into temptation'. The possibility is ever-before us that we will fall away. We cling to Him for mercy, for strength, for protection, for our salvation. The very weak-link in your theology is OSAS. Many in your 'camp' spend a lot of time citing Paul to prove their point (out of context, I might add.). But few concentrate their arguments on the words of Jesus themselves. Every parable I read, concerning salvation, points to the utter necessity of continued faithfulness in heart AND in action/deeds/works. Once OSAS is refuted, sola-fide falls as well...if there is something you can do to lose your salvation (something you can do to abandon being in a state of grace), then there is something one can/must do to MAINTAIN that grace. Of course, our very maintaining is by GRACE, so that 'no man can boast'. But still, WE are given the choice, and WE must EXERCISE it.

Jn.15.6-10 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

 

[Briguy]

John 14:
28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
[29] And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
[30] Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
[31] But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

John.15
[1] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
[14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Jude, so much is going on in these verses that you just can’t pull out a couple and say that it means this or that. I used more verses but even still I don’t believe the entire thought can be captured by just these. This is Jesus pouring out his heart to his closet disciples (the apostles). We must realize that we are not the audience here but that we can learn from what Jesus is saying. Jesus is letting his disciples know what is coming and for them not to fear. He knows here he will be betrayed and crucified and suffer badly but yet he softly comforts them. We can learn from this that we must love Jesus and we do that by loving eachother. Jesus was the ultimate love example and these verses show that. Jesus tells us here that Joy comes from serving Him. To move away from that service would be to lose the joy, not the salvation. Anyway, much more then that going on here but there is no way to make these verses say anything to the doctrine of OSAS, in fact if anything they support it. Look at 15:6, the person “not in Christ” is cast out. Look at 15:7 and see that this is not meant for me and you, at least it has not been manifested in my life. The apostles were specially given abilities, etc… and this section of scripture has to be seen as pertaining to them, with implications for us, not absolutley aplying to us. More to come on Hebrews as time permits.

Hope you are well,
In Christ,
Brian