Explain it. Prove it a requirement by Scripture.
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Saving Faith....
- Thread starter pinoybaptist
- Start date
John Gilmore
New Member
Saving faith lays hold of Christ. "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 3:11 "He that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16
Thank you, John.
I will wait for the others before stating what I believe the Bible says, or does not say.
I will wait for the others before stating what I believe the Bible says, or does not say.
Ray Berrian
New Member
'Without faith it is impossible to please Him . . . . he who comes to God must believe . . . . that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. [Hebrews 11:6]
In some Scripture God the Spirit woos sinners to Himself; in this verse it is man who moves toward Almighty God, it is the sinner who must believe, it is man seeking after God.
Dr. Berrian
In some Scripture God the Spirit woos sinners to Himself; in this verse it is man who moves toward Almighty God, it is the sinner who must believe, it is man seeking after God.
Dr. Berrian
Primitive Baptist
New Member
If we would confine our theological vocabulary to that found in Scripture, things might not be so confusing. For example, the idea that God "woos" sinners to Christ is not found in Scripture. Neither is the phrase "saving faith." Most of the time, phrases not found in the Bible are a covering for doctrines not found in the Bible. In this case, both of these ideas, that God "woos" sinners to Christ and "saving faith," are doctrines not taught in the word of God.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Faith is a word concept that means that a person is in union with Jesus. [Romans 5:1] We don't need to use the word saving faith.
I thought that most of you knew that the Father [John 6:44a] and the precious Holy Spirit [Revelation 22:17] inclines and draws the sinner to receive the Son. [John 1:12 & 3:16] This is what we mean when we say that the Holy Spirit woos the sinner as to his or her inner need. This word is well within the circumference of Christian theological truth. Don't get spooked.
Ray
I thought that most of you knew that the Father [John 6:44a] and the precious Holy Spirit [Revelation 22:17] inclines and draws the sinner to receive the Son. [John 1:12 & 3:16] This is what we mean when we say that the Holy Spirit woos the sinner as to his or her inner need. This word is well within the circumference of Christian theological truth. Don't get spooked.
Ray
Primitive Baptist
New Member
The Father DRAWS men to Jesus Christ (John 6:44). The Greek word is HELKUO. According to Strong's (1670), the word means TO DRAW, DRAG OFF. Metaphorically, it is used to mean TO DRAW BY INWARD POWER, LEAD, IMPEL. If you were to go to a well, would you "woo" the water bucket to come to you? No, you would DRAW it. That is exactly the way Christ used the word. It is exactly the way Primitive Baptists use it. We are justified Godward by the BLOOD. Period. We are justified usward by FAITH. It is by faith that we believe Jesus to be our all in all. That, Brother Ray, is justification by faith. We have peace with God through Jesus Christ just like the Roman letter says.
So THAT is what I was doing wrong! I went to a well. I sent the bucket a Hallmark card. I sent it flowers. I even sent it a box of chocolates, and it still didn't come up out of the well filled with water. Dang. Well, at least I know now that it didn't come up out of the well because it willfully rejected my affections. That makes me feel a little better, even though I'm still awfully thirsty.
Seriously, that was an excellent post, thanks.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
Well, it goes back to what I stated. If we would confine our theological vocabulary to that used in Scripture, we might avoid unnecessary problems.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
It wouldn't surprise me brother.
Ray Berrian
New Member
God the Father draws all sinners to Himself: [John 6:44]
God the Son draws all sinners to Himself: [John 12:32]
God the Spirit draws all sinners to Himself: [Revelation 22:17]
Here is the united call of the Godhead to all sinners and not just to His alleged, selected ones.
The church calls all sinners to come to Him. [Revelation 22:17]
And 'whosoever will, {here is your free will theology} let him take the water of life freely.' [Revelation 22:17 f,g] God is not speaking here of an enforced, drinking, water trough.
The alleged Effectual Call is a misnomer, because God is not unjust to give a general call, which would be hypocritical, if in fact He is only going to give salvation to His hand picked elect.
Study the justice of God; Arminian Christians and theologians, in fact, believe the Lord is fair in all of His dealings with humankind.
Dr. Berrian
And though the word, woo, is not in the Bible it fits perfectly into the spiritual call of God to lost sinners. Webster says, 'woo'= to sue for the affection, to court, to solicit or entreat especially with importunity, to seek to gain or bring about or to court a woman.'
Was your wooing of your lover before marriage real or synthetic? Were you drawing her with all of your ability, or did you have a care less attitude?
The same is true of our Lord. His call, drawing and/or wooing is real. His entreating of all lost ones [Ezekiel 3:19 b,c,d & I Timothy 2:6] is sincere, in keeping with the nature of God (His Attributes). He is in fact God of justice, love, grace and mercy, and so on.
God the Son draws all sinners to Himself: [John 12:32]
God the Spirit draws all sinners to Himself: [Revelation 22:17]
Here is the united call of the Godhead to all sinners and not just to His alleged, selected ones.
The church calls all sinners to come to Him. [Revelation 22:17]
And 'whosoever will, {here is your free will theology} let him take the water of life freely.' [Revelation 22:17 f,g] God is not speaking here of an enforced, drinking, water trough.
The alleged Effectual Call is a misnomer, because God is not unjust to give a general call, which would be hypocritical, if in fact He is only going to give salvation to His hand picked elect.
Study the justice of God; Arminian Christians and theologians, in fact, believe the Lord is fair in all of His dealings with humankind.
Dr. Berrian
And though the word, woo, is not in the Bible it fits perfectly into the spiritual call of God to lost sinners. Webster says, 'woo'= to sue for the affection, to court, to solicit or entreat especially with importunity, to seek to gain or bring about or to court a woman.'
Was your wooing of your lover before marriage real or synthetic? Were you drawing her with all of your ability, or did you have a care less attitude?
The same is true of our Lord. His call, drawing and/or wooing is real. His entreating of all lost ones [Ezekiel 3:19 b,c,d & I Timothy 2:6] is sincere, in keeping with the nature of God (His Attributes). He is in fact God of justice, love, grace and mercy, and so on.
The question was is there such a thing as saving faith. A faith that results in one's salvation. Let me qualify salvation further. I am speaking of eternal salvation, not timely salvation which is the blessings and protection of God as a consequence of living a God-centered, submitted and obedient life.
I submit to one and all that the Bible does not speak of a saving faith. A fallen sinner, one who is totally depraved and bereft of any faith that pleases God, even when he hears the gospel of his salvation, cannot have that kind of faith that results in his eternal salvation.
Christ is the one who fulfilled that requirement for him when in eternity past He covenanted with the Father to save sinners whose names He knew and wrote down, just as He was the One who fulfilled all the requirements of all the Law and therefore was the acceptable sacrifice, the innocent in place of the guilty, the obedient for the disobedient, the meek for the defiant.
Romans 3:22 -
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Galatians 2:16 (please read this very carefully)-
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:20 - (Read very carefully)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 3:22 (read very carefully)
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Philippians 3:9 -
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Jesus Christ's righteousness is imputed to His children. They are counted righteous for His sake, and when they practice that righteousness, that is, manifest it thru their deeds and life, they reap the benefits of a timely salvation.
Jesus Christ's holiness is imputed to His children. They are counted holy for His sake, and commanded to be holy for He is holy, and when they obey they reap the benefits of that holy life in this plane called time.
Jesus Christ's faith is imputed to them, and their faith in Christ is counted to them as righteousness and justifies them in that Jesus Christ alone is the one who is called Faithful and True. It is Christ's faith that saves and justifies. No man, elect or otherwise, has that saving faith.
I submit to one and all that the Bible does not speak of a saving faith. A fallen sinner, one who is totally depraved and bereft of any faith that pleases God, even when he hears the gospel of his salvation, cannot have that kind of faith that results in his eternal salvation.
Christ is the one who fulfilled that requirement for him when in eternity past He covenanted with the Father to save sinners whose names He knew and wrote down, just as He was the One who fulfilled all the requirements of all the Law and therefore was the acceptable sacrifice, the innocent in place of the guilty, the obedient for the disobedient, the meek for the defiant.
Romans 3:22 -
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Galatians 2:16 (please read this very carefully)-
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:20 - (Read very carefully)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 3:22 (read very carefully)
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Philippians 3:9 -
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Jesus Christ's righteousness is imputed to His children. They are counted righteous for His sake, and when they practice that righteousness, that is, manifest it thru their deeds and life, they reap the benefits of a timely salvation.
Jesus Christ's holiness is imputed to His children. They are counted holy for His sake, and commanded to be holy for He is holy, and when they obey they reap the benefits of that holy life in this plane called time.
Jesus Christ's faith is imputed to them, and their faith in Christ is counted to them as righteousness and justifies them in that Jesus Christ alone is the one who is called Faithful and True. It is Christ's faith that saves and justifies. No man, elect or otherwise, has that saving faith.
John Gilmore
New Member
pinoybaptist,
What you have proven is that saving faith is not a work or possession of man but of Christ alone which is what I said in my original post. "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom. 4:5
The ungodly are given the faith of Christ and the faith of Christ is counted for righteousness. This saving faith of Christ God imputes for righteousness in His sight.
What you have proven is that saving faith is not a work or possession of man but of Christ alone which is what I said in my original post. "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom. 4:5
The ungodly are given the faith of Christ and the faith of Christ is counted for righteousness. This saving faith of Christ God imputes for righteousness in His sight.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Pionybaptist;
What must a man do in order to have eternal life?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
What is faith if it is not belief. This doesn't say you'll be saved in order to be able to believe. Believing in Jesus Christ is saving faith.
May God Bless You;
Mike
What must a man do in order to have eternal life?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
What is faith if it is not belief. This doesn't say you'll be saved in order to be able to believe. Believing in Jesus Christ is saving faith.
May God Bless You;
Mike
Ray Berrian
New Member
ILUVLIGHT,
You said,
You said,
John Gilmore
New Member
I am also puzzled why Calvinists and Primitive Baptists don't like 'saving faith'. Saving faith can and should be understood as something that is not of man but of Christ.
The theologians call original sin an 'accident' because it is not of the substance of man. In like manner, we should consider saving faith an 'accident' and not of the substance of man.
Although original sin is not of the substance of man, it is a depravity so total that man can not in the least begin, assist, or bring to completion his own salvation. So too, saving faith is not of the substance of man yet it instantly and completely saves those tainted by original sin, because, as many as have been baptized unto Christ, have put on Christ.
The theologians call original sin an 'accident' because it is not of the substance of man. In like manner, we should consider saving faith an 'accident' and not of the substance of man.
Although original sin is not of the substance of man, it is a depravity so total that man can not in the least begin, assist, or bring to completion his own salvation. So too, saving faith is not of the substance of man yet it instantly and completely saves those tainted by original sin, because, as many as have been baptized unto Christ, have put on Christ.