Saving Faith

[webdog]

When did Jesus' disciples (Peter, John, Matthew, et al.) have saving faith? When they answered Jesus' call initially? Some point during His ministry, or after witnessing His first miracle? At His death? At His resurrection, when He met with them? At Pentecost?

What say you?

 

[thegospelgeek]

Can one be a disciple and/or an apostle and not have saving faith? very good topic. I'm looking forward to hearing comments.

 

[Revmitchell]

No intelligent comment can be made since it is not given in scripture.

 

[webdog]

No intelligent comment can be made since it is not given in scripture.

Well, we do have Thomas' declaration after touching His hands and side "My Lord and my God". That is one disciple, and one example...and that occured after His resurrection. Saving faith prior to that, or at that moment?

Remember, after Jesus' death the disciples went about their own business, and returned to their pre-Christ lives. I guess one group will look at it as they didn't have saving faith (Peter's denial included in this) prior to His death, one may look at it as they lost their salvation since they didn't endure to the end, and one might believe they were saved during His ministry, or during His call to follow Him, but turned away after His death.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, we do have Thomas' declaration after touching His hands and side "My Lord and my God". That is one disciple, and one example...and that occured after His resurrection. Saving faith prior to that, or at that moment?

Remember, after Jesus' death the disciples went about their own business, and returned to their pre-Christ lives. I guess one group will look at it as they didn't have saving faith (Peter's denial included in this) prior to His death, one may look at it as they lost their salvation since they didn't endure to the end, and one might believe they were saved during His ministry, or during His call to follow Him, but turned away after His death.

Another group says Michael was Jesus the archangel, another says Joseph Smith is equal to Jesus, and another says Jesus was created.

 

[webdog]

Another group says Michael was Jesus the archangel, another says Joseph Smith is equal to Jesus, and another says Jesus was created.

How is this relevant to the discussion

 

[Revmitchell]

How is this relevant to the discussion

Many people make a great deal of claims about what scripture says. In the end scripture does not speak to this issue other than they were saved. The exact point cannot be drawn form scripture. The biggest potential of this thread is it ends up being a reformed debate.

 

[MB]

When did Jesus' disciples (Peter, John, Matthew, et al.) have saving faith? When they answered Jesus' call initially? Some point during His ministry, or after witnessing His first miracle? At His death? At His resurrection, when He met with them? At Pentecost?

What say you?

I don't believe a one of them were saved until after the Lords resurrection. Thomas for instance didn't believe Christ was in fact Christ until he felt His wounds. At the the trial of Jesus they all scattered. Even Peter denied Him. Actually they all denied Him because they left Him.

When I first believed in Christ I didn't accept Him because I felt the fun of life would be gone when I did. I was still in love with the world. When I accepted Christ I had come to Love Him more than anything else because of what He did for me. Once I had this love for Him I realized that the most unbearable thing I could ever experince would be to be with out Him. I slip and fall now and then God knows I'm not perfect. I would hope that I'd lay my life down for Him as He did for me. I say hope because truthfully no one knows what they'll do until they are face with such a proposition of death or life.
MB

 

[thegospelgeek]

I don't believe a one of them were saved until after the Lords resurrection. Thomas for instance didn't believe Christ was in fact Christ until he felt His wounds. At the the trial of Jesus they all scattered. Even Peter denied Him. Actually they all denied Him because they left Him.

When I first believed in Christ I didn't accept Him because I felt the fun of life would be gone when I did. I was still in love with the world. When I accepted Christ I had come to Love Him more than anything else because of what He did for me. Once I had this love for Him I realized that the most unbearable thing I could ever experince would be to be with out Him. I slip and fall now and then God knows I'm not perfect. I would hope that I'd lay my life down for Him as He did for me. I say hope because truthfully no one knows what they'll do until they are face with such a proposition of death or life.
MB

What about Peter when he recognized him as the Christ?

 

[MB]

What about Peter when he recognized him as the Christ?

I'm sorry but Peter didn't recognize Christ. Christ was revealed to Him by God. Not to mention Peter could not have been saved at that time because there was no atonement until Christ died for all our sins.
MB

 

[Pilgrimer]

When did Jesus' disciples (Peter, John, Matthew, et al.) have saving faith? When they answered Jesus' call initially? Some point during His ministry, or after witnessing His first miracle? At His death? At His resurrection, when He met with them? At Pentecost?

What say you?

How about all of the above? I think it was as true for the disciples as it is for people today, it probably happened at different times for each of them. The way I understand the work of salvation is that it is a very personal work of God in the heart of a person. I don't think we can say that salvation had to happen in just this way or at that particular time. I imagine it happened at different times for each of them, depending upon what was in their own hearts, regardless of what was going on in the hearts of their fellow disciples. Some of the disciples were apparently already Godly men who sought to serve the Lord, so much so that they actively sought out Jesus. And yet others were perhaps far from God and living very sinful lives, but at some point something about Jesus touched them and drew them to him and they became God-seekers.

And I think it all happens much the same way today. Salvation is a very personal thing and I don't think it happens to everyone in the same way or at some particular point. It's a mysterious work that goes on in the deepest recesses of the heart and mind and only God knows the condition of either, or when that moment of enlightenment comes. Sooner for some, later for others, what is important is that it comes.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

P.S.

Now if the question is, when did they actually experience the regenerating power of the Holy Ghost, that would have been at Pentecost, for all of them, as well as the rest of the 120 in the upper room that morning.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[canadyjd]

Now if the question is, when did they actually experience the regenerating power of the Holy Ghost, that would have been at Pentecost, for all of them, as well as the rest of the 120 in the upper room that morning.

Actually, prior to pentecost: John 20:22 "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'".

peace to youraying:

 

[Marcia]

Actually, prior to pentecost: John 20:22 "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'".

peace to youraying:

I think this was temporary as when the Spirit was given to people in the OT, so they did not have the permanent indwelling of the Spirit at this point. Saul at one point had God's Spirit and it was removed, so this action in John does not mean they were saved.

I tend to think that it was when they saw and believed the resurrected Christ.

 

[Marcia]

I'm sorry but Peter didn't recognize Christ. Christ was revealed to Him by God. Not to mention Peter could not have been saved at that time because there was no atonement until Christ died for all our sins.
MB

But OT saints were saved before the atonement.

 

[Tom Butler]

But OT saints were saved before the atonement.

Yeah, I'd like for MB to expand on that. If Peter wasn't saved, neither was John the Baptist, a man filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb. And how come Abraham was described as justified because of his faith?

And David prayed in repentance, "restore unto me the joy of my salvation."

MB, you've got some 'splainin' to do.

 

[Allan]

When did Jesus' disciples (Peter, John, Matthew, et al.) have saving faith? When they answered Jesus' call initially? Some point during His ministry, or after witnessing His first miracle? At His death? At His resurrection, when He met with them? At Pentecost?

What say you?

I would say their 'saving faith' was not until they understood who Jesus really was and His purpose/work - and that was only after the resurrection.

Scripture tells us in Luk 24:45 that it was not until after the resurrection that they understood not only who He was, but what He was to do, and for the purpose of why He was doing it. This is basis of the gosple message, and Jesus tells them that they will soon receive the promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit) but tarry till it happen.

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Scripture alos states in anoter gospel account they didn't believe when they first heard He was risen from the dead.

Mar 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
Mar 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Mar 16:13 And they went and told [it] unto the residue: neither believed they them.

The scriptures in Luke 24 give the account of two walking when Jesus came upon them (and they didn't know it was Him). They said they trusted/believed that He was a great prophet and that it was He who was promised to deliver/redeem Israel. But then a few verse later Jesus tells them - you fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets said concerning Him that He should die?

Thus their belief was in who they thought He was to be and not so much as to who He was and was to do. Eternal life is this - knowing God the Father and His Son whom He has sent. Thus eternal life is wrapped in knowing God, the Son and His purpose/mission (being sent).
They did not yet truly understand but only had a mental assent of what they thought Him to be, but not who He truly was and had come to do.


So my view is that 'saving faith' in relation to the NT work of Christ Jesus did not transpire until after the resurrection. When exactly is in the hands of God alone to know.

 

[Allan]

But OT saints were saved before the atonement.

I am in agreement here.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I'm sorry but Peter didn't recognize Christ. Christ was revealed to Him by God. Not to mention Peter could not have been saved at that time because there was no atonement until Christ died for all our sins.
MB

Therefore no OT saints are saved?

 

[MB]

But OT saints were saved before the atonement.

No one is saved in advance of the atonement. It takes the blood of Christ to save. OT saints didn't believe in Christ because if they had they would not have rejected Him.
David says in;
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
It is in Hell that David hears the gospel.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Below from the "treasury of scriptural knowledge".

The three days Christ was in the grave He set the captives free and they are the OT saints
hell: The word hell, from the Saxon hillan or helan, to hide, or from holl, a cavern, though now used only for the place of torment, anciently denoted the concealed or unseen place of the dead in general; corresponding to the Greek αδηϚ, i.e., ο αιδηϚ τοπος, the invisible place and the Hebrew sheol, from shaal, to ask, seek, the place and state of those who are out of the way, and to be sought for.
MB