Saving Faith

[MB]

Yeah, I'd like for MB to expand on that. If Peter wasn't saved, neither was John the Baptist, a man filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb. And how come Abraham was described as justified because of his faith?

And David prayed in repentance, "restore unto me the joy of my salvation."

MB, you've got some 'splainin' to do.

Tell us Tom how is a man saved with out Christ and His sacrifice for our sins. Was it by the Law or maybe on credit.
MB

 

[thegospelgeek]

Tell us Tom how is a man saved with out Christ and His sacrifice for our sins. Was it by the Law or maybe on credit.
MB

It t'was by faith my friend.

In regard to your previous post about the Old Testament saints in Hell, were they not seperated from the place of torments and secure in Abraham's bosum awaiting for the atonement of the cross? I would consider this saved. but I could be wrong.

 

[MB]

It t'was by faith my friend.

In regard to your previous post about the Old Testament saints in Hell, were they not seperated from the place of torments and secure in Abraham's bosum awaiting for the atonement of the cross? I would consider this saved. but I could be wrong.

Faith in what? The Law!!!!!!!!!! Jesus Said I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by me. Now if you can't get there except through Christ you'd have to have Christ to get there and not Just Christ but also the payment for your sins. What you described about Abrahams bossom is true. But even then they still had to accept Christ as there Savior. No one get's saved with out Christ. Some here will disagree and claim they were saved by believing He would come. However again with out the payment of there sins they were held captive in Abrahams bossom waiting for Christ.
The term shouldn't be "saved" but "set aside."
MB

 

[thegospelgeek]

Faith in what? The Law!!!!!!!!!! Jesus Said I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by me. Now if you can't get there except through Christ you'd have to have Christ to get there and not Just Christ but also the payment for your sins. What you described about Abrahams bossom is true. But even then they still had to accept Christ as there Savior. No one get's saved with out Christ. Some here will disagree and claim they were saved by believing He would come. However again with out the payment of there sins they were held captive in Abrahams bossom waiting for Christ.
The term shouldn't be "saved" but "set aside."
MB

Sorry, should have been more specific, "Faith in Christ", to come. Saved, set aside, just terminology.

 

[TCGreek]

When did Jesus' disciples (Peter, John, Matthew, et al.) have saving faith? When they answered Jesus' call initially? Some point during His ministry, or after witnessing His first miracle? At His death? At His resurrection, when He met with them? At Pentecost?

What say you?

WD, a great set of questions, my brother.

My own opinion is when they answered that initial call to follow him (saving faith is first internal, then is expressed through words and deeds).

 

[MB]

Sorry, should have been more specific, "Faith in Christ", to come. Saved, set aside, just terminology.

That depends. "Saved " is Having Salvation already. If they had Salvation already they wouldn't have been held captive. You see the word "Salvation" means delivered.
David said after being in hell;
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

That means David didn't have the path of life.
MB

 

[thegospelgeek]

That depends. "Saved " is Having Salvation already. If they had Salvation already they wouldn't have been held captive. You see the word "Salvation" means delivered.
David said after being in hell;
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

That means David didn't have the path of life.
MB

OK, If we are going to be so specific on our terminology, the OP was in refence to "Saving Faith" not justification, atonement, or saved. I sugest that Peter had 'Saving Faith" when God revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ. Not when he fully understood the work that Jesus was to do. I recieved that "Saving faith" when God revealed to me that Jesus was the saviour I needed. That was more than 25 years ago and I still do not fully understand the work that Christ did. But one day I will!!

 

[MB]

OK, If we are going to be so specific on our terminology, the OP was in refence to "Saving Faith" not justification, atonement, or saved.

But you cannot have saving faith and not be saved. Until Christ paid for our sins Peter could not nor did not believe that Christ died for our sins and rose on the third day simply because it hadn't happened yet. Saving faith requires those three things to have faith in. That is saving faith.

I sugest that Peter had 'Saving Faith" when God revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ. Not when he fully understood the work that Jesus was to do. I recieved that "Saving faith" when God revealed to me that Jesus was the saviour I needed. That was more than 25 years ago and I still do not fully understand the work that Christ did. But one day I will!!

Even devils and demons believe there is a Christ they just do not accept that He died for our sins and rose on the third day.

To believe in Christ means we have to believe His actions were for our benefit. For our Salvation our deliverance from the punishment of our sins.
Paul says this is the gospel we must believe to be saved;
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
MB

 

[canadyjd]

I think this was temporary as when the Spirit was given to people in the OT, so they did not have the permanent indwelling of the Spirit at this point. Saul at one point had God's Spirit and it was removed, so this action in John does not mean they were saved.

I tend to think that it was when they saw and believed the resurrected Christ.

There is nothing in the passage of John that suggests it was a temporary experience.

Indeed, it was the fulfillment of the promise of Jesus to send the Holy Spirit and not leave them as orphans.

peace to youraying:

 

[Pilgrimer]

Tell us Tom how is a man saved with out Christ and His sacrifice for our sins. Was it by the Law or maybe on credit.
MB

It was on credit, charged to the account of Jesus, who signed off with his own blood "Paid In Full."

I agree MB that there was a difference however in their salvation and ours. They never had the blessed experience of walking, living, breathing, being in the presence of God. Their sins were not yet cleansed, the blood had not yet been shed and spread abroad, so in life they could only approach God as close as the porch of the tabernacle, and they could draw no closer. But we, oh Blessed that we are, we can simply kneel, where ever we are, and can just turn our hearts and our minds upon Him and He is there, and we are in His presence, for He abides with us, and in us, and through us dwells in this earth. Under our Covenant, We are His Temple.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Marcia]

No one is saved in advance of the atonement. It takes the blood of Christ to save. OT saints didn't believe in Christ because if they had they would not have rejected Him.
David says in;
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
It is in Hell that David hears the gospel.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Below from the "treasury of scriptural knowledge".

The three days Christ was in the grave He set the captives free and they are the OT saints
hell: The word hell, from the Saxon hillan or helan, to hide, or from holl, a cavern, though now used only for the place of torment, anciently denoted the concealed or unseen place of the dead in general; corresponding to the Greek αδηϚ, i.e., οαιδηϚτοπος, the invisible place and the Hebrew sheol, from shaal, to ask, seek, the place and state of those who are out of the way, and to be sought for.
MB

But they were saved by believing in God. Scripture tells us that, giving the example of Abraham being justified by faith.

 

[Marcia]

There is nothing in the passage of John that suggests it was a temporary experience.

Indeed, it was the fulfillment of the promise of Jesus to send the Holy Spirit and not leave them as orphans.

peace to youraying:

Yes, but Jesus said he had to leave before the Holy Spirit could come.

 

[MB]

It was on credit, charged to the account of Jesus, who signed off with his own blood "Paid In Full."

Hi Pilgrimer;
The concept of credit doesn't work because the OT never says we are saved by believing in something that hasn't happened. Unless you say that the purchased item is set aside like a layaway until the debt is paid.

I agree MB that there was a difference however in their salvation and ours. They never had the blessed experience of walking, living, breathing, being in the presence of God. Their sins were not yet cleansed, the blood had not yet been shed and spread abroad, so in life they could only approach God as close as the porch of the tabernacle, and they could draw no closer. But we, oh Blessed that we are, we can simply kneel, where ever we are, and can just turn our hearts and our minds upon Him and He is there, and we are in His presence, for He abides with us, and in us, and through us dwells in this earth. Under our Covenant, We are His Temple.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

My point exactly. It isn't as if the OT saints were lost because of being in Abrahams bossom. They were not suffering they were in Paradise. The place where Jesus Walked with the theif that hung on a cross next to our Lord.
MB

 

[Marcia]

Hi Pilgrimer;
The concept of credit doesn't work because the OT never says we are saved by believing in something that hasn't happened. Unless you say that the purchased item is set aside like a layaway until the debt is paid.

My point exactly. It isn't as if the OT saints were lost because of being in Abrahams bossom. They were not suffering they were in Paradise. The place where Jesus Walked with the theif that hung on a cross next to our Lord.
MB

But it is disputable as to whether the OT Saints in Paradise were not with God. The term "Paradise" has different meanings, one of which is being with God after death. This issue was raised on another thread about 2 months ago or so and there are views on both sides.

Abraham was saved when he believed God; that's in God's word. Salvation was faith in what had been revealed to them: the one true eternal God. That included Christ, although they did not have the specific information on Him.

 

[MB]

But it is disputable as to whether the OT Saints in Paradise were not with God. The term "Paradise" has different meanings, one of which is being with God after death. This issue was raised on another thread about 2 months ago or so and there are views on both sides.

Christ said;
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This proves Jesus Christ was in paradise.He is God and is omnipresent

Abraham was saved when he believed God; that's in God's word. Salvation was faith in what had been revealed to them: the one true eternal God. That included Christ, although they did not have the specific information on Him.

I believe Romans 4 should answer this. Scripture does not say Abraham was saved but instead said;
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
I know some would determine this to mean he was saved. But no man is saved with out the righteousness of Christ to cover his sins. Let me explain further.
Abraham could not have believed in Christ because Christ had not been revealed to him.
John wrote;
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If there were another way to heaven there would have been no need for Christ.
Paul wrote;
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Abraham was righteous in the Law. and what the Law could not do is save.
Believing in God is a commandment of the Law.
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Abraham wasn't the only one to believe God.

If we are to believe we can be saved by keeping the Law then we make the Law a god before the Lord God.
It is my belief that there are no heavenly promises in the OT. However this doesn't mean they were lost even though they believed what had been revealed to them at the time.
Paul said Christ descended to the lower parts of the earth;

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Peter said;
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The only prision that can hold a spirit is Hell. What would be the purpose of Jesus Going to preach to these spirits?
It wasn't to give them a second chance it was to give them a chance to be saved by hearing the gospel. What held them in prision was death. That prison wasn't for punishment but was a holding until the atonement had been paid. Then the path to Christ could be revealed to them.

MB

 

[Marcia]

Christ said;
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This proves Jesus Christ was in paradise.He is God and is omnipresent

Yes, and this could mean heaven with God.

I believe Romans 4 should answer this. Scripture does not say Abraham was saved but instead said;
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
I know some would determine this to mean he was saved. But no man is saved with out the righteousness of Christ to cover his sins. Let me explain further.
Abraham could not have believed in Christ because Christ had not been revealed to him.

I'm really somewhat shocked at this view. Believing in God was being saved because Christ had not yet incarnated. Also, there is no other way to explain Rom 4.3 or the OT passages about Abraham believing God than that it was salvation.

John wrote;
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If there were another way to heaven there would have been no need for Christ.
Paul wrote;
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Abraham was righteous in the Law. and what the Law could not do is save.
Believing in God is a commandment of the Law.
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Abraham wasn't the only one to believe God.

Believing God is faith.

If we are to believe we can be saved by keeping the Law then we make the Law a god before the Lord God.

I don't know why you say this. I never said anyone could be saved by the law. They can't.

It is my belief that there are no heavenly promises in the OT. However this doesn't mean they were lost even though they believed what had been revealed to them at the time.
Paul said Christ descended to the lower parts of the earth;

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Descended to the lower parts means he died - his body went to the grave.

Peter said;
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The only prision that can hold a spirit is Hell. What would be the purpose of Jesus Going to preach to these spirits?
It wasn't to give them a second chance it was to give them a chance to be saved by hearing the gospel. What held them in prision was death. That prison wasn't for punishment but was a holding until the atonement had been paid. Then the path to Christ could be revealed to them

There are different views on the 1 Peter passage. The actual word is making a proclamation, not preaching. If Jesus did go there, it was to proclaim victory not to preach the gospel. Nobody gets a second chance after death (Heb 9.27)!

I happen to agree with view no. 2 below.

The meaning of this preaching and the spirits to whom he preached are much debated. It is commonly understood to be: (1) Christ’s announcement of his victory over evil to the fallen angels who await judgment for their role in leading the Noahic generation into sin; this proclamation occurred sometime between Christ’s death and ascension; or (2) Christ’s preaching of repentance through Noah to the unrighteous humans, now dead and confined in hell, who lived in the days of Noah. The latter is preferred because of the temporal indications in v. 20a and the wider argument of the book. These verses encourage Christians to stand for righteousness and try to influence their contemporaries for the gospel in spite of the suffering that may come to them. All who identify with them and their Savior will be saved from the coming judgment, just as in Noah’s day.

From NET Bible notes.

 

[Zenas]

I could add my 2 cents worth on the theology of 1 Peter 3:18-20, but instead I will focus on John 14:6. If Jesus is the only way to the Father, then there were no O.T. saints in Heaven before His atonement (except Enoch, Elijah and possibly Moses). Whatever Abraham's bosom was, it was not Heaven. It was simply the abode of the righteous dead who awaited the atonement of Christ, who would lead them to Heaven.

As for the disciples, if they, or anyone else, were saved by their faith before the death of Jesus, then there was no need for Him to die. He could have come to earth and proclaimed the message of salvation by faith and gone back to Heaven without undergoing that ugly crucifixion. It would have been completely unnecessary.

 

[Marcia]

I could add my 2 cents worth on the theology of 1 Peter 3:18-20, but instead I will focus on John 14:6. If Jesus is the only way to the Father, then there were no O.T. saints in Heaven before His atonement (except Enoch, Elijah and possibly Moses). Whatever Abraham's bosom was, it was not Heaven. It was simply the abode of the righteous dead who awaited the atonement of Christ, who would lead them to Heaven.

As for the disciples, if they, or anyone else, were saved by their faith before the death of Jesus, then there was no need for Him to die. He could have come to earth and proclaimed the message of salvation by faith and gone back to Heaven without undergoing that ugly crucifixion. It would have been completely unnecessary.

The promise is eternal life. When the OT saints believe in God, they received eternal life. God is called the Redeemer in the OT. It was and always has been the Trinitarian God.

Jesus said that the OT scriptures spoke of Him and that Moses spoke of Him. So even if the OT saints did not specifically know about Jesus, they knew Him through knowing the true Trinitarian God.

The Bible is not clear at all where the OT saints went upon death but they did have eternal life and salvation upon death.

 

[TCGreek]

The promise is eternal life. When the OT saints believe in God, they received eternal life. God is called the Redeemer in the OT. It was and always has been the Trinitarian God.

Jesus said that the OT scriptures spoke of Him and that Moses spoke of Him. So even if the OT saints did not specifically know about Jesus, they knew Him through knowing the true Trinitarian God.

The Bible is not clear at all where the OT saints went upon death but they did have eternal life and salvation upon death.

Well put, I say.

 

[Zenas]

The promise is eternal life. When the OT saints believe in God, they received eternal life. God is called the Redeemer in the OT. It was and always has been the Trinitarian God.

Jesus said that the OT scriptures spoke of Him and that Moses spoke of Him. So even if the OT saints did not specifically know about Jesus, they knew Him through knowing the true Trinitarian God.

The Bible is not clear at all where the OT saints went upon death but they did have eternal life and salvation upon death.

Perhaps, but they did not enter Heaven and come to the Father except throuth Jesus.

Also, you didn't address the main point of my post. If Heaven was possible before Jesus, what good was the incarnation? Why did Jesus have to die?