Saving Faith

[canadyjd]

Yes, but Jesus said he had to leave before the Holy Spirit could come.

Didn't He leave? He died. He then came back and gave them the Holy Spirit, just like He promised.

I see nothing in the text that would indicate the passage in John is anything other than what it appears to be. The fulfillment of the promise to give them the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for the input, though

peace to youraying:

 

[Marcia]

Perhaps, but they did not enter Heaven and come to the Father except throuth Jesus.

Also, you didn't address the main point of my post. If Heaven was possible before Jesus, what good was the incarnation? Why did Jesus have to die?

Jesus had to die to pay the penalty for sins for everyone - past, present, and future. But this did not prevent people being saved through faith before Christ came. God knew this would happen from eternity.

 

[Marcia]

Didn't He leave? He died. He then came back and gave them the Holy Spirit, just like He promised.

I see nothing in the text that would indicate the passage in John is anything other than what it appears to be. The fulfillment of the promise to give them the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for the input, though

peace to youraying:

But He was still physically present at that time (in John 20). This event in Jn 20 is not the event Jesus referred to earlier in John 14. Then, he said the Father would send the Spirit:

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

and

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So the event in John 20 is not the sending of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The event referred to in John 14 is Pentecost.

 

[arroworchard]

Peter acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ but did he believe? As he was restored unto Jesus and asked "Do you love Me" this seems to be a life changing moment for Peters life. Can we know for certian when he was saved? We can see the fruit of his life and how he ran away befor Jesus asked about his love and how he ran for Christ after he was asked. Just a thought:type:

 

[TCGreek]

Perhaps, but they did not enter Heaven and come to the Father except throuth Jesus.

Also, you didn't address the main point of my post. If Heaven was possible before Jesus, what good was the incarnation? Why did Jesus have to die?

Zenas, you are making a fundamental mistake here: revelation is progressive in Scripture and human encounter with God.

God reveals as much as needed for a particular dispensation. For example, God's revelation for Abraham was sufficient for Abraham's time.

Jesus was revealed to Abraham, so Jesus could not have been the object of his faith.

 

[Zenas]

Zenas, you are making a fundamental mistake here: revelation is progressive in Scripture and human encounter with God.

God reveals as much as needed for a particular dispensation. For example, God's revelation for Abraham was sufficient for Abraham's time.

Jesus was revealed to Abraham, so Jesus could not have been the object of his faith.

So you're saying John 14:6 was inoperative for Abraham? If that be so, at what point in time did John 14:6 become operative? When Jesus uttered it? After He died? At Pentecost?

 

[MB]

Yes, and this could mean heaven with God.

Not really because Heaven is never referred to as paradise.

I'm really somewhat shocked at this view. Believing in God was being saved because Christ had not yet incarnated. Also, there is no other way to explain Rom 4.3 or the OT passages about Abraham believing God than that it was salvation.

I'm just as shocked that you believe they could have been saved because there is no heavenly promises in the Old Testiment. Abraham didn't know anything about Christ. In order to be saved one has to believe the gospel and they didn't have the gospel. Oh they believed that a messiah would come but they had no idea that it would be God Him Self and that they would be believing in Him.

Believing God is faith.

yes it is but believing in Jesus Christ the Son of God is Salvation. Which you cannot have Salvation with out believing in the gospel and believing in Christ. It isn't enough to just believe but we must believe He died for our sins and that He rose again on the third day and has ascended in to heaven and sits with the Father. Abraham didn't know anything about Christ because Christ wasn't revealed to him. Going to heaven means you are going to the Father. Christ said no man comes unto the Father except through Christ. Jn 14:6

I don't know why you say this. I never said anyone could be saved by the law. They can't.

I said that because Abraham was obeying the Law by believing in God as opposed to other Gods and the Law was what his righteousness was in. You see if you do not believe in God then you automatically believe either in your self or some other god. The Law says "thou shalt have no other god's before me" IOW's we are commanded to believe in God. Salvation demands that we believe in the Son of God as well. Abraham could not have believed in the Son because the Son had not been revealed.

Descended to the lower parts means he died - his body went to the grave.

That isn't what scripture says.

There are different views on the 1 Peter passage. The actual word is making a proclamation, not preaching. If Jesus did go there, it was to proclaim victory not to preach the gospel. Nobody gets a second chance after death (Heb 9.27)!

That's just it . It was not a second chance but rather a chance to know Jesus Christ and believe in Him

I happen to agree with view no. 2 below.



From NET Bible notes.[/quote]
Not every comentary is true but the Bible is. If you'd rather believe a commentary that's your choice. This is not a Salvation issue but is Biblical History.
MB

 

[MB]

So you're saying John 14:6 was inoperative for Abraham? If that be so, at what point in time did John 14:6 become operative? When Jesus uttered it? After He died? At Pentecost?

Since Abraham didn't have the gospel because Jesus had not revealed the new covenant yet He could not have believed in it. Jn 14:6 was operative from the beginning but, wasn't known of until it had been revealed.
MB

 

[Marcia]

Not really because Heaven is never referred to as paradise.
MB

That is an argument from silence. Some Jewish literature does say that Paradise is being with God after death.

I'm just as shocked that you believe they could have been saved because there is no heavenly promises in the Old Testiment. Abraham didn't know anything about Christ. In order to be saved one has to believe the gospel and they didn't have the gospel. Oh they believed that a messiah would come but they had no idea that it would be God Him Self and that they would be believing in Him.

Your view that Abraham and Moses could not have been saved before the incarnation of Jesus is a view I have never heard in my church, seminary, from my pastor, mission board, or in any other church I've been to. Does your church believe and teach this?

yes it is but believing in Jesus Christ the Son of God is Salvation. Which you cannot have Salvation with out believing in the gospel and believing in Christ. It isn't enough to just believe but we must believe He died for our sins and that He rose again on the third day and has ascended in to heaven and sits with the Father. Abraham didn't know anything about Christ because Christ wasn't revealed to him. Going to heaven means you are going to the Father. Christ said no man comes unto the Father except through Christ. Jn 14:6

I already explained this. Believing in the God who was revealed to them was saving faith because it was also believing in Jesus because Jesus is part of the Trinitarian God, even though they did not know Jesus.

That isn't what scripture says.

"Descended to the lower parts of the earth" - look it up in some lexicons and commentaries. You know, it's not wrong to check these things out.

Not every comentary is true but the Bible is. If you'd rather believe a commentary that's your choice. This is not a Salvation issue but is Biblical History

I am not choosing to believe the Bible over a commentary; I am only agreeing with the commentary's interpretation.

 

[Tom Butler]

Here are a couple of scripture verses to chew on.

John 8:56 Jesus is speaking. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it, and was glad."

Hebrews 11:13 David and the other patriarchs in this chapter "died in faith, not having received the promise, but having seen them afar off were assured of them."

I don't know at what point Abraham saw Jesus' day, but Jesus said he did.

The writer of Hebrews said the patriarchs saw the promise and believed it.

The Scriptures say that the prophets spoke of the Messiah.

Maybe the OT saints knew more than we think they did.

 

[Marcia]

Here are a couple of scripture verses to chew on.

John 8:56 Jesus is speaking. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it, and was glad."

Hebrews 11:13 David and the other patriarchs in this chapter "died in faith, not having received the promise, but having seen them afar off were assured of them."

I don't know at what point Abraham saw Jesus' day, but Jesus said he did.

The writer of Hebrews said the patriarchs saw the promise and believed it.

The Scriptures say that the prophets spoke of the Messiah.

Maybe the OT saints knew more than we think they did.

Good points!

Said by Jesus:
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; John 5.39


This means he was using the OT!
for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. Acts 18.28

 

[Tom Butler]

Good points!

Said by Jesus:
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; John 5.39


This means he was using the OT!
for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. Acts 18.28

Thanks Marcia, and good on ya' for your Scripture passages.

 

[MB]

That is an argument from silence. Some Jewish literature does say that Paradise is being with God after death.

The statement is true but I'm with God HimSelf right now and I'm not exactly in heaven. He does live with in me.

Your view that Abraham and Moses could not have been saved before the incarnation of Jesus is a view I have never heard in my church, seminary, from my pastor, mission board, or in any other church I've been to. Does your church believe and teach this?

It would be a narrow view indeed for any church to avoid this subject because it's in scripture. I showed scriptural support for it and it isn't as rare as you think it is.

I already explained this. Believing in the God who was revealed to them was saving faith because it was also believing in Jesus because Jesus is part of the Trinitarian God, even though they did not know Jesus.

Yes you did tell me that yet you don't have even one scripture to support it. This is the ideas of men not scripture. There is only one way to the Father and that is through Christ and OT saints could not have possibly believed in Christ and that He died for our sins and rose again on the third day, because Christ had not been revealed to them.

"Descended to the lower parts of the earth" - look it up in some lexicons and commentaries. You know, it's not wrong to check these things out.

There is a problem with dictionaries and commentaries. They do not all say the same thing. So there reliability is sketchy at best.

I am not choosing to believe the Bible over a commentary; I am only agreeing with the commentary's interpretation.

At least you're willing to admit that you believe comentaries over the Bible then.
MB

 

[Marcia]

The statement is true but I'm with God HimSelf right now and I'm not exactly in heaven. He does live with in me.

It would be a narrow view indeed for any church to avoid this subject because it's in scripture. I showed scriptural support for it and it isn't as rare as you think it is.

I have to disagree you showed scriptural support for it. You gave verses but they are contradicted by the verses I gave. I do not think you support your view from scripture that OT saints were not saved when they believed in the one true God.

Yes you did tell me that yet you don't have even one scripture to support it. This is the ideas of men not scripture. There is only one way to the Father and that is through Christ and OT saints could not have possibly believed in Christ and that He died for our sins and rose again on the third day, because Christ had not been revealed to them.

The eternality of the Trinitarian God is not the ideas of men! Are you saying that it is?

John 14.6 did not exist when the OT saints lived. I don't know how you can say they were not saved by believing in God.

At least you're willing to admit that you believe comentaries over the Bible then.

This is an untruth. I said no such thing!

 

[GordonSlocum]

When did Jesus' disciples (Peter, John, Matthew, et al.) have saving faith? When they answered Jesus' call initially? Some point during His ministry, or after witnessing His first miracle? At His death? At His resurrection, when He met with them? At Pentecost?

What say you?

First, we must ask ourselves; were they saved under the previous dispensation or prior to the death of Christ, Acts 2. I would say yes with one exception, Judas.

Second, all true believers in the previous dispensation or prior to the death of Christ, Acts 2 had to believe as everyone does and I personally believe that all true OT believers did accept Christ based upon the conditions required under the new dispensation of Grace, the Chruch Age.

 

[rjprince]

(thought I posted this a couple of hours ago, but can't find it now... If DP someone please yell at me!)

Gen 15:6 declares that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. If imputed righteousness on the basis of faith is not salvation, pray tell what is? Paul confirmed this in Rom 4:1-4.


Did Abraham believe that Jesus died for his sins? Of course not! Even the twelve did not understand this until after the death, burial and resurrection! Peter was still fighting against that whole idea in the garden when the soldiers came. If understanding the gospel of the cross is the requirement for salvation in all ages, then no one could have been saved prior to the cross and the preaching of the gospel of the cross (1Cor 15:1-4).


I cannot say when the 11 were saved, but I can say that it was before the cross on the basis of Jesus word in the upper room –

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

the NAS more accurately conveys the nuances of the difference between niptw and luw

10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

Jesus referring to the eleven as “clean” seems to be a pretty clear indication that they were saved at this point, for what is salvation be becoming “completely clean” on the basis of faith in Jesus...


SALVATION WAS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN ALL AGES, PERIOD. THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD WAS ALWAYS INVOLVED IN DEALING WITH SIN IN ALL AGES, PERIOD. THE OBJECT OF SAVING FAITH IN ALL AGES WAS ALWAYS GOD, PERIOD. However, the CONTENT of what was believed WAS NOT THE SAME IN ALL AGES.


Salvation, justification, imputed righteousness, whatever you want to call it NEVER came to anyone from keeping the law. NNE HERE SAID THAT, at least not I that noticed. That “straw man” may float in your river, but it will not STAND in this thread!

ROM 3:19-28
19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Jesus’ death is the basis for all salvation in all ages, but the Gospel of the cross was not the content of all faith (see the progressive revelation comment made earlier).


Glad to see that someone recognized that Thomas was not the only one who refused to believe the resurrection! At first, none of them believed that Jesus was risen from the dead! That did not mean that they did not retain their faith in God, only that they did not understand the resurrection yet. The fact that they did not believe the women’s testimony concerning the resurrection DOES NOT demonstrate that they had not believed in Jesus.


Yes, the Lord did breathe on them and say, Receive the Spirit, but even after that Jesus acknowledge that the Spirit had not come in His fulness and therefore His promise to send the Spirit was still future and still conditioned upon His earlier words that the Spirit would not come until He went away...

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Acts 1:4-5
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

When were the 11 saved? When they believed! When was that? At some point before the Upper Room Discourse.


I sincerely hope that I have done irreparable damage to at least a little bit of ignorance (to borrow the thought from a new friend!). I am ever so grateful for those who have been assaulting my ignorance for most of my life! Without their help and instruction, I would be even more ignorant than I have turned out to be!

 

[rjprince]

Second, all true believers in the previous dispensation or prior to the death of Christ, Acts 2 had to believe as everyone does and I personally believe that all true OT believers did accept Christ based upon the conditions required under the new dispensation of Grace, the Chruch Age.

That hits me as a fairly extreme position! If OT believers did accept Christ, when and how? I know you said "personally believe" but WHY?