Saving Faith

[JSM17]

The Bible doctrine of justification by faith is like the doctrine of love in that, instead of proving obedience is not essential, it proves the opposite. It shows that faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Justification by faith includes obedience; it does not exclude it. We are saved by faith when that faith has moved us to obey the conditions of salvation. Without that obedience, we do not have a saving faith.

 

[annsni]

We are saved by grace through faith period.

Once we have a regenerated heart (the heart of flesh as opposed to the heart of stone), we will, by nature of our new life, obey God and seek to do His will.

But salvation does not depend on our works.

 

[Darron Steele]

The Bible doctrine of justification by faith is like the doctrine of love in that, instead of proving obedience is not essential, it proves the opposite. It shows that faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Justification by faith includes obedience; it does not exclude it. We are saved by faith when that faith has moved us to obey the conditions of salvation. Without that obedience, we do not have a saving faith.

Perhaps you could clarify for us what you mean by "obedience."

I have my prediction -- but please do clarify.

 

[Jedi Knight]

The Bible doctrine of justification by faith is like the doctrine of love in that, instead of proving obedience is not essential, it proves the opposite. It shows that faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Justification by faith includes obedience; it does not exclude it. We are saved by faith when that faith has moved us to obey the conditions of salvation. Without that obedience, we do not have a saving faith.

What did the thief on the cross do to obey Christ?

 

[Pastor David]

We're not saved by works of faith, we're saved by a faith that works.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor David: We're not saved by works of faith, we're saved by a faith that works.

HP: Faith that God accepts as saving faith involves the voluntary formation of an intent. That is precisely the manner in which every work of man is accomplished. Certainly our faith is not meritorious, but none the less, it directly involves an act of the will, ‘without which’ no one will be saved.

Your comment of ‘works of faith’ is indeed interesting. That concept is indeed Scriptural. 2Th 1:11 ¶ Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:” (Scarlett, how immature were these believers?)

Does our faith us? It depends on what sense you use it. It is not the grounds of our salvation, so in that sense it does not. The mercy and grace of God are the grounds of our salvation, not our faith. When faith is thought of as being a stated condition of salvation and not as the grounds, yes our faith can be seen as to save us for without faith no man can please God.

According to Scripture if your will is not actively forming intents according to ones stated faith, ones faith is vain being dead and alone. Dead or vain faith will not save anyone period.

In reality such dead faith is a misnomer. It in reality is not faith at all. It is simply deception, causing one to believe they have something of value called faith when in reality they do not.

 

[Jedi Knight]

We are not save by Faith......but by grace through faith. Faith is no better than the object that it's directed at...in our case as born again believers its Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lu 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Lu 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Lu 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

This is just a smattering of verses that indeed show that ones faith is in fact involved in ones healing and ones salvation. Faith is not some nebulous impulse necessitated by God, but is something, although granted to all men in small measure, accredited to our wills, not that of God necessitating us with it.

We are told to repent and have faith. Unless we repent and voluntarily exercise faith we shall all likewise perish. God is waiting on man to do something in order to save man. We are not saved ‘by’ or ‘on the account of’ our commanded works of repentance and faith, but neither will we be saved apart from them either. All works commanded by God including faith, are though of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ NOT ‘that for the sake of.’

 

[Jedi Knight]

Lu 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Lu 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Lu 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

This is just a smattering of verses that indeed show that ones faith is in fact involved in ones healing and ones salvation. Faith is not some nebulous impulse necessitated by God, but is something, although granted to all men in small measure, accredited to our wills, not that of God necessitating us with it.

We are told to repent and have faith. Unless we repent and voluntarily exercise faith we shall all likewise perish. God is waiting on man to do something in order to save man. We are not saved ‘by’ or ‘on the account of’ our commanded works of repentance and faith, but neither will we be saved apart from them either. All works commanded by God including faith, are though of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ NOT ‘that for the sake of.’

If she had faith in anyone other than Christ it would do nada.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: If she had faith in anyone other than Christ it would do nada.

HP: Amen. Hope thou in God! 1Pe 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I like that word 'lively.'

 

[JSM17]

Once we have a regenerated heart (the heart of flesh as opposed to the heart of stone), we will, by nature of our new life, obey God and seek to do His will.

So you are regenerated, born again before you have faith and are saved before faith has been established?

When God changes your heart does he put into you faith?

So God changes you before you even can believe in His Son?

This is what you are implying in your statement.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Once we have a regenerated heart (the heart of flesh as opposed to the heart of stone), we will, by nature of our new life, obey God and seek to do His will.

So you are regenerated, born again before you have faith and are saved before faith has been established?

When God changes your heart does he put into you faith?

So God changes you before you even can believe in His Son?

This is what you are implying in your statement.

Such is monergism.

 

[Darron Steele]

The Bible doctrine of justification by faith is like the doctrine of love in that, instead of proving obedience is not essential, it proves the opposite. It shows that faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Justification by faith includes obedience; it does not exclude it. We are saved by faith when that faith has moved us to obey the conditions of salvation. Without that obedience, we do not have a saving faith.

Perhaps you could clarify for us what you mean by "obedience."

I have my prediction -- but please do clarify.

I would still like that clarification.

What do you mean by "obedience?"

 

[OldRegular]

The Bible doctrine of justification by faith is like the doctrine of love in that, instead of proving obedience is not essential, it proves the opposite. It shows that faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Justification by faith includes obedience; it does not exclude it. We are saved by faith when that faith has moved us to obey the conditions of salvation. Without that obedience, we do not have a saving faith.

What are the conditions of salvation??

 

[EdSutton]

What are the conditions of salvation??

I thought they were stated in Acts. 16:31, personally, as this is the direct answer to the question of "What must I do to be saved?"

27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. (Ac. 16:27-34 - NKJV)

Discipleship does not equal salvation, by definition, for Judas was a disciple, yet never saved, and the thief on the cross never had a chance to become a disciple.

Incidentally, I believe this is the only time there can be found a direct answer to this specific question, in Scripture.

Ed

 

[Allan]

I thought they were stated in Acts. 16:31, personally, as this is the direct answer to the question of "What must I do to be saved?"

Discipleship does not equal salvation, by definition, for Judas was a disciple, yet never saved, and the thief on the cross never had a chance to become a disciple.
Ed

Correct, discipleship of itself does not equate to salvation. There are different aspects of a disciple such as those who are a pupil, or a learner, or a follower (according to its usages). Each illistrates a different level of commentment within the term, disciple. Your point is well put as well concerning Judas and the thief on the cross.

Thus it can also be well said that though discipleship does not equate to salvation it is in fact one of the defining characteristics of one who is saved.
You can not have belief without action nor can you have an action be true (pure) without belief in it.

IOW - I can obey and not personally want to or believe that what I am doing is right/correct. But am merely doing it keep me or bring me into the good graces of the one to whom I doing it for. This action is will has no value to God because it is not done according to faith.

Just as believing something but not doing anything with respect to that belief is also worthless before God because it is not true belief/faith that does not act in accordance with that belief.

 

[billwald]

There are no conditions. The Holy Spirit regenerates whom she will. See John 3.


>So you are regenerated, born again before you have faith and are saved before faith has been established?

Regeneration precedes conversion. Conversion is the human response to regeneration. There is no test for regeneration (salvation, call it what you will except continuing good works. As the Bible teaches, one "works out one's salvation in fear and trembling."

 

[JSM17]

Originally Posted by Darron Steele
Perhaps you could clarify for us what you mean by "obedience."

I have my prediction -- but please do clarify.

OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENT, OBEY
hupakoe NT:5218, "obedience" (hupo, "under," akouo, "to hear"),
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

To submit, obey the Gospel.

All things are to be done in faith.

Do all baptist believe that one is regenerated before conversion, before faith? If so I can understand why then obedience is always an act of God moving you to be obedient and not a submission of our will towards God in coming to salvation. I may have that wrong, but is seems to me that obedience towards God never occurs before conversion or at least that is cannot because of the view of man's lack of ability because he is dead spiritually.

 

[Jedi Knight]

What were the children of Israel told do when they were bitten my the serpents? As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up.......can you fill in the blanks?

 

[Darron Steele]

Perhaps you could clarify for us what you mean by "obedience."

I have my prediction -- but please do clarify.

OBEDIENCE, OBEDIENT, OBEY
hupakoe NT:5218, "obedience" (hupo, "under," akouo, "to hear"),
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

To submit, obey the Gospel....

I am guessing that since you decided not to actually clarify what you meant, I am going to assume you mean what you apparently do not want to admit.

To you, "obedience" means `completed works.'

Of course, to be "obedient" means other things besides `getting things done.' Sometimes, it refers to an attitude, or disposition.

Hence, it would fit right into believing that Jesus Christ is Lord -- Acts 16:31.

In Scripture, the term "obeyed the Gospel" refers to "believe" -- Romans 10 comes to mind.

This latest attempt to get us to dismiss the teaching of Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV), or to toss aside the teaching of Ephesians 2:8-10, is not going to work. Both of these passages should be taken at face value; the necessity of obedience does not add works subsequent to faith. The attitude/disposition of obedience is included within faith.