Saving Faith

[BobRyan]

Absolutely it's a condition...and it is placed there by God throughout Scripture. No, salvation must not be conditioned upon the work and will of man. First, faith is not a work, and second, without the work of the Holy Spirit FIRST, man would never seek God.

That is true.

Fortunately John 16 tells us that the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

And John 12:32 tells us that the supernatural drawing of God is upon ALL mankind.

John 1 - Christ is this the light that coming into the world enlightens every man.

so all are enabled to "choose life" but not all do.

 

[Martin Luther]

The Bible doctrine of justification by faith is like the doctrine of love in that, instead of proving obedience is not essential, it proves the opposite. It shows that faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Justification by faith includes obedience; it does not exclude it. We are saved by faith when that faith has moved us to obey the conditions of salvation. Without that obedience, we do not have a saving faith.

Well said!!

 

[BobRyan]

Clarification question -- did Martin Luther believe in OSAS?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JSM17]

Here are a few quotes, beginning with Luther's comment on the statement of the Lord's prayer, "lead us not into temptation."


"We have now heard enough what toil and labor is required to retain all that for which we pray, and to persevere therein, which, however, is not achieved without infirmities and stumbling. Besides, although we have received forgiveness and a good conscience and are entirely acquitted, yet is our life of such a nature that one stands to-day and to-morrow falls. Therefore, even though we be godly now and stand before God with a good conscience, we must pray again that He would not suffer us to relapse and yield to trials and temptations. ... Then comes the devil, inciting and provoking in all directions, but especially agitating matters that concern the conscience and spiritual affairs, namely, to induce us to despise and disregard both the Word and works of God to tear us away from faith, hope, and love and bring us into misbelief, false security, and obduracy, or, on the other hand, to despair, denial of God, blasphemy, and innumerable other shocking things. These are indeed snares and nets, yea, real fiery darts which are shot most venomously into the heart, not by flesh and blood, but by the devil. Great and grievous, indeed, are these dangers and temptations which every Christian must bear, even though each one were alone by himself, so that every hour that we are in this vile life where we are attacked on all sides, chased and hunted down, we are moved to cry out and to pray that God would not suffer us to become weary and faint and to relapse into sin, shame, and unbelief. For otherwise it is impossible to overcome even the least temptation. This, then, is leading us not into temptation, to wit, when He gives us power and strength to resist, the temptation, however, not being taken away or removed. For while we live in the flesh and have the devil about us, no one can escape temptation and allurements; and it cannot be otherwise than that we must endure trials, yea, be engulfed in them; but we pray for this, that we may not fall and be drowned in them." (Martin Luther, Large Catechism XII, On the Lord's Prayer, 6th Petition).

"Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief" (Martin Luther, Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22).

"Verse 4, "Ye are fallen from grace." That means you are no longer in the kingdom or condition of grace. When a person on board ship falls into the sea and is drowned it makes no difference from which end or side of the ship he falls into the water. Those who fall from grace perish no matter how they go about it. ... The words, "Ye are fallen from grace," must not be taken lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil, and everlasting condemnation." (Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians, 5:4).

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks! That is what I wanted to know.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

JSM17
The Bible doctrine of justification by faith is like the doctrine of love in that, instead of proving obedience is not essential, it proves the opposite. It shows that faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Justification by faith includes obedience; it does not exclude it. We are saved by faith when that faith has moved us to obey the conditions of salvation. Without that obedience, we do not have a saving faith.

GE:
What you say is the opposite of what Paul said in Galatians and in Romans. You are just repeating salvation through works.
Listen to what R Adam says; he knows wat he is talking :
"While I agree that man wouldn't seek God without the work of the Holy Spirit, I still object to a condition placed upon man for eternal salvation. I find over and over again in scripture that faith in Christ, that belief in Christ and the Father that sent Him, are evidences of present possession of everlasting life, not prerequisites to gain everlasting life. "

 

[JSM17]

GE:
What you say is the opposite of what Paul said in Galatians and in Romans. You are just repeating salvation through works.
Listen to what R Adam says; he knows wat he is talking :
"While I agree that man wouldn't seek God without the work of the Holy Spirit, I still object to a condition placed upon man for eternal salvation. I find over and over again in scripture that faith in Christ, that belief in Christ and the Father that sent Him, are evidences of present possession of everlasting life, not prerequisites to gain everlasting life. "

Every man and women in the world can hear the word of God, yet it is said with out the work of the Holy Spirit man would not seek after God. The work of the Holy Spirit is through His word, man can either believe it and obey or believe it and not obey or not believe it at all.

Saving faith is faith that works. If I have faith and have not repented then I have not been saved.

Faith is putting your trust into something. Can someone come to an understanding of Jesus yet not understand that he need to repent yet? Does this mean the person does not have faith at all? have you ever met someone who has not understood fully the requirement of obdedience?

Is it possible for one to believe but has not repented yet? Does this mean that the person will never repent? If he does then his faith is obeying if not then his faith may never save him.

 

[annsni]

Saving faith is faith that works.

And the works come FROM that saving faith. In other words, we cannot do anything good on our own to earn our salvation. However, a faith in Jesus Christ will produce a life that is seeking, striving and desiring to please God and do His will. But it is not the works that save - but are an evidence of the salvation that is within.

 

[Darrenss1]

Saving faith is faith that works. If I have faith and have not repented then I have not been saved.

Faith is putting your trust into something. Can someone come to an understanding of Jesus yet not understand that he need to repent yet? Does this mean the person does not have faith at all? have you ever met someone who has not understood fully the requirement of obdedience?

Is it possible for one to believe but has not repented yet? Does this mean that the person will never repent? If he does then his faith is obeying if not then his faith may never save him.

This is an example of a series of poorly asked questions. Asking questions howbeit, wrong or based upon flawed premises doesn't prove anything. I asked this on another thread but what is your definition you are applying to repentence? Do you mean repentence of sins?

If I have faith and have not repented then I have not been saved?? According to what scripture??

Saving faith is faith that works?? Is a completely nonsensical statement.

Darren

 

[JSM17]

Saving faith is faith that works?? Is a completely nonsensical statement.

It cannot be nosensical, if that be the case then james is nonsensical.

James 2:20-26

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
NKJV

The bottom line is was Abraham and Rahab justfied by works. The answer is yes, but it seems that many of you are saying no.

 

[Darrenss1]

It cannot be nosensical, if that be the case then james is nonsensical.

James 2:20-26

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
NKJV

The bottom line is was Abraham and Rahab justfied by works. The answer is yes, but it seems that many of you are saying no.

Yes "saving faith" (it works) is nonsensical in the context you put it in. Faith that results in salvation, the gift of God, eternal life, is saving faith, one act done and over with, completed. James is talking about faith incorporated into the christian life - practical christianity in action.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Darren

 

[DeafPosttrib]

This topic have been debate,debate about the faith.

I ask you, please define what does "faith" mean? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Darrenss1]

I ask you, please define what does "faith" mean? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

In what context? Saving faith? General belief? As a christian or as a non christian?

Darren

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Doesn't matter to me what you asking me, I am interesting to hear your definition of 'faith', what it means. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Darrenss1]

Doesn't matter to me what you asking me, I am interesting to hear your definition of 'faith', what it means. Thanks.

I'm simply giving you a chance to set the context of your question. Do you mean saving faith or not? Otherwise you can simply look up faith in the dictionary, its not necessarily a theological term unless for the reason of, you want to define the word in a specific theological context such as saving faith according to Eph 2:8.

Darren

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I did looked in modern dictionary for faith, it says, 'belief', and 'a system of religion doctrines believed in', loyality, pledged. This dictionary is not good enough to define the meaning of faith. I did looked at 1828 Webster Dictionary, it is very good definition!

There are many meanings of 'faith'. But I like to show you the beginning statement of faith: "to trust, to draw towards any things, to counciliate, to believe, to obey....."

I like 1828 Webster Dictionary because, Noah Webster understoods that 'faith' is more than just one time event of "believed", it also having demand to have commitment life to God completely with faith.

There are many different dictionaries with different definitions of faith.

I believe that Hebrews chapter 11 is the most champion definition of 'faith' what it meaning. We should reading that chapter explaining deep what is the 'faith' means.

This chapter telling us very clear that our faith requires to have commitment or being dedicated fully our life to Christ with obedience and to serve Him while believing in Him throughout our lifetime till we die.

Being to saying, "I already believed in Christ, I am saved that's it." Is not good enough to go into heaven.

We have to put our faith in Christ fully with our dedicate our life completely.

Christ tells us, we must take up the cross and follow him that is the faith.

Being follow Christ costly our life. If we want back to our comfortable life again and not want to follow Christ, then we will lost at the end. Not only "lose reward", but LOST eternal life at the judgment day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

I did looked in modern dictionary for faith, it says, 'belief', and 'a system of religion doctrines believed in', loyality, pledged. This dictionary is not good enough to define the meaning of faith. I did looked at 1828 Webster Dictionary, it is very good definition!

There are many meanings of 'faith'. But I like to show you the beginning statement of faith: "to trust, to draw towards any things, to counciliate, to believe, to obey....."

I like 1828 Webster Dictionary because, Noah Webster understoods that 'faith' is more than just one time event of "believed", it also having demand to have commitment life to God completely with faith.

There are many different dictionaries with different definitions of faith.

I believe that Hebrews chapter 11 is the most champion definition of 'faith' what it meaning. We should reading that chapter explaining deep what is the 'faith' means.

This chapter telling us very clear that our faith requires to have commitment or being dedicated fully our life to Christ with obedience and to serve Him while believing in Him throughout our lifetime till we die.

Being to saying, "I already believed in Christ, I am saved that's it." Is not good enough to go into heaven.

We have to put our faith in Christ fully with our dedicate our life completely.

Christ tells us, we must take up the cross and follow him that is the faith.

Being follow Christ costly our life. If we want back to our comfortable life again and not want to follow Christ, then we will lost at the end. Not only "lose reward", but LOST eternal life at the judgment day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The word "faith" (as it is with many words) is used differently according to its context. Only the context can determine the proper meaning of the word.

Eph. 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of works."
This is speaking of the confidence, the trust that one puts in the finished work of Christ. It is not a work. Salvation is by faith alone.

However Jude said to a Christian audience that all (believers) must contend for the faith.
--The meaning of "faith" here is that body of doctrine that we believe that is generally held within the pages of the body and accepted by Christians everywhere.
These are two very different meanings of faith. Only the context can give you the meaning of the word.

 

[Gershom]

The Bible doctrine of justification by faith is like the doctrine of love in that, instead of proving obedience is not essential, it proves the opposite. It shows that faith will not save until it moves us to obey. Justification by faith includes obedience; it does not exclude it. We are saved by faith when that faith has moved us to obey the conditions of salvation. Without that obedience, we do not have a saving faith.

We cannot be saved unless we obey? So salvation is not the gift of God? We are not saved by grace (undeserved favor) through faith? We are saved by obeying? Wouldn't that be a works-salvation? Shucks, I had it wrong all these years. Anybody have some white-out?

 

[Darrenss1]

Being to saying, "I already believed in Christ, I am saved that's it." Is not good enough to go into heaven.

We have to put our faith in Christ fully with our dedicate our life completely.

Christ tells us, we must take up the cross and follow him that is the faith.

Being follow Christ costly our life. If we want back to our comfortable life again and not want to follow Christ, then we will lost at the end. Not only "lose reward", but LOST eternal life at the judgment day!

There's no question that Christianity involves serving God, obeying Him, giving our lives to Him..etc there's no question of that but those things are not qualifications for salvation. The idea is people want to make proviso's and subsections in scripture to ensure a specific standard is maintained with the punishment of hell as the just deserts for those that don't follow the "standards". Not only does that change the terms of the gospel but it makes the method almost unreachable by anyone (anything short of perfect is not good enough), even those with the best intentions will fail even those that believe, love and serve God will find that in them dwells no good thing (shock horror!!), the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, a flesh nature..etc and that either they become self righteous or self condemning but relying on their own works IF they endure to the end. How accurate must you be to "obey God"? 100%? 50%? What about the sin of omission? You should have done but didn't do? Where can this mentality be found in scripture? Jesus never taught it, Paul never taught it, so how did it creep into the terms of salvation in the new covenant??

Darren

 

[JSM17]

We cannot be saved unless we obey? So salvation is not the gift of God? We are not saved by grace (undeserved favor) through faith? We are saved by obeying? Wouldn't that be a works-salvation? Shucks, I had it wrong all these years. Anybody have some white-out?

Love the sarcasm. White out? Don't you know your not supposed to sniff that stuff? That explains a lot.

Christ became the author of eternal life to those who obey Him!

Obedience to God's commands does not nullify grace. How can obedience to God commands nullify the grace that he offers, does He force it on you or do you accept it? If you accept it then are you doing something. Sounds like works to me!

Faith is either something that we do or else it doesn't happen, is not faith a condition of salvation. WHat about repentance is that something that you have to work out or is that done for you so you can stand on a no works salvation?