SBC: An unregenerate Denomination by Jim Elliff

[gb93433]

I hold to a multiple Pastor/Elder form of government. Since this was the practice of many early within our Baptist history, I would say that it is a legitimate Baptist belief. I, however, reject the idea of two distinct offices, a ruling elder and a preaching elder. Elders are elders and while they may excersize differing gifts in the eldership, there there is parity. As well, there is not a heirarchy above the local church.

When is the first time we see elders as a part of church government in Baptist history? The first time I can remember is Spurgeon.

 

[gb93433]

What the Bible teachers...by whose interpretation?

In light of its historical context. Once that work is done the rest is usually much easier. The problem is there are those who are lazy and there are also those who follow the crowd and do not care about the truth. If they knew the truth they would not like it because they are following the crowd of politicians.

If we went by length of time of the existence of a creed then the Jews and Catholics would win.

 

[saturneptune]

I agree with Tom Butler, Baptists are not Protestants, although they were known by a variety of names through the centuries. There have always been "Baptists", those known as "the people of the Book".

Going back to the original subject, I think a big part of the problem is that we have it too easy in America. This can be seen in the OT as well. Whenever Israel was blessed and in prosperity, this is when they tended to depart from God. Whenever they were persecuted, they returned to God.

I don't think folks are "playing church", they are simply distracted by the world. They are the seed grown up among thorns. I do not believe these persons are lost, but they bear no fruit for Christ.

If our government were to persecute Christians, you would see the real believers come out. They might meet in secret, but they will come back to the church.

Winman,
Believe it or not, I agree with you. We do have it very easy in America today. We have lost any similance of survival skills. The reaction of people when they lose electricity for a couple of hours, from no air conditioner to having no idea what to do with their time, is amazing.

Your comment about playing church almost reminds me of the endless debate about the four seeds sown in the parable told by the Lord. There has always been a difference of opinion as to whether one or two were saved.

I do think the bottom line here is that there has always been a NT church, from Ressurection until now, along side the Catholic Church. After the Reformation, other NT churches sprang up. It does not matter what they were called or if one can link them to modern day Baptists, the fact is the Lord preserved His church.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

For a Baptist to say they are not Protestant is for a Baptist to say they do not protest the errors of the Papacy. Maybe that is the case today...

I am a Baptist Protestant.

 

[Tom Butler]

For a Baptist to say they are not Protestant is for a Baptist to say they do not protest the errors of the Papacy. Maybe that is the case today...

I am a Baptist Protestant.

The historic definition of Protestant is that they came out of the Roman Catholic Church during the Reformation. They did not exist prior to the Protestant Reformation.

The historical evidence is that there were Baptists in Wales well before then. One of our own BB members, Jim1999 has cited such evidence. Protesting RC errors does not make one a Protestant.

Regarding elders and deacons (and women deacons), all of us on either side appeal to scripture for our views. I believe that elders were also known as bishops and pastors, and they were not different people. My pastor is also a bishop and an elder. And he's the only one we have. See Acts 20:28

I note that Ruiz favors elder rule. That's fine. I would not make it a test of orthodoxy. Each congregation is free to adopt what it pleases.

I do think it's interesting that in many Baptist churches which have adopted the elder-led form of church government, most if not all changed from the pastor-deacon form. The transition was probably made easier in churches where deacons acted like Presbyterian elders, instead of acting as servants.

 

[Ruiz]

When is the first time we see elders as a part of church government in Baptist history? The first time I can remember is Spurgeon.

The majority of Pastors who represented their church in London in 1689 were Elder rule (or, better terminology is congregational/elder). I Pastored a church that was one of the older Baptist Churches in America and they originally had elders.

Spurgeon was not the first. Rather, he represented a tradition.

 

[Ruiz]

What about the office of a deacon? What is its role and function?

I asked about the presbytery because I don't know that form of government that well.

A deacon is a person who serves the church whereas the elders are shepards of the church. I would use a deacon to serve the church, not in shepherding situations, but administration and other areas. For instance, counting the offering, making out checks, organizing people to clean the church or mow the lawn, etc... They are not shephards but they should still have spiritual qualificiations.