SBC and Women Preachers???

[blackbird]

Back on page one of this thread---Mister Graves made the comment and asked the question concering 11,000 women preachers in the SBC--whether the number of women ministers were about right.

Well, as far as female "ministers"---there may be that particular number---associates and other positions within the church--but to have a number like 11,000 Female Senior Pastors probably would be blowing it all out of perportion---

To my knowledge---Mississippi Southern Baptists have only one one female Senior Pastor. Now, thats one out of 2500 SBC churches in the state--if there's 11,000 of um---then the others have a lot of catchin' up to do.

 

[Baptist Believer]

So apparently everyone familiar with Southern Baptist life agrees that a figure of 11,000 female "preachers" is completely inaccurate. Any disagreement?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
And all of this rigid adherence to the "no female preacher" doctrine goes out of the window when Lifeway (the Former Sunday School Board of the SBC) happens across a successful female Bible teacher/preacher named Beth Moore who's mere name sells millions of dollars of books for them.... Does she have a word from the Lord?... My wife certainly thinks so. The ladies of my church surely think so. Most of the SBC women I know think so.... I think she preaches better than most of the "male preachers and pastors" in my association and state convention.

I should clarify my position: It is NOT, I repeat, NOT unbibical for a woman to be a preacher. Neither is it unbiblical for a woman to lead a congregation. However, if the SBC decides that only men can lead a flock, that is their right. The SBC, however, does not speak for every Baptist contregation, nor does it speak for Christianity in general. It only speaks for SBC congregations. As an SBC person myself, I've never seen a woman lead a flock. If the SBC were to formally allow women to do so, it wouldn't bother me one bit. And if a non-SBC congregation wants to choose a woman to lead them, it is certainly allowable biblically, and is allowable in the Baptist Distinctives.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
And all of this rigid adherence to the "no female preacher" doctrine goes out of the window when Lifeway (the Former Sunday School Board of the SBC) happens across a successful female Bible teacher/preacher named Beth Moore who's mere name sells millions of dollars of books for them.

If you don't think she is preaching listen to her tapes. Watch her videos. Go to her conferences and see the growing number of men in the audience.

Does she have a word from the Lord?

My wife certainly thinks so. The ladies of my church surely think so. Most of the SBC women I know think so.

What do I think? I think she preaches better than most of the "male preachers and pastors" in my association and state convention.

Oh, but remember Lifeway is a business. Doesn't that sound like the denomination that told its people not to drink caffeinated beverages until they prucahased a soft drink business. Seems like a lot of theology is changed by what could be financial gain. Lifeway is even handling charismatic books and other books that would not support the theology taught in SBC seminaries. It's one thing to appear to have the right theology and another to adhere to it. </font>[/QUOTE]Does selling Beth Moore's books in Lifeway mean that the SBC endorses having female pastors? I don't think so. That is a 1 + 1 = 5 type statement. Besides, you guys are missing the point. It is not simply about a woman "preaching or teaching" it is about women not usurping the God ordained order of authority in His created order. Beth Moore is not serving as a pastor of a local church, nor does she assume authority over any one body of believers (a local church).

Additionally, the selection of books at Lifeway containing Charismatic resources is not a problem. If it is then I had better head on over to the Library here at SEBTS and start a book burning. We have books by Liberal Scholars, by Catholic Scholars, by Presbyterian Scholars, by Charismatics, by Mormons, by GWs, by Muslims, and the list goes on. One of the purposes of Lifeway is to provide the resources for our Baptist people to be Theologically well educated. You can not be so educated if you don't know what the other side is saying and teaching. </font>[/QUOTE]It is doubtful that the average person would be shopping for a book to better understand the charismatic or some other viewpoint. Most people want to better understand what they should believe as a Baptist.

Does that mean you would advocate Lifeway selling the Book of Mormon also?

I cannot sell what I believe to be heretical. A Christian bookstore is not there to sell heresy.

SWBTS also has many books they don't agree with. But I think the people who are students at a seminary understand that too. A library is for research.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Now, Bible-boy,

As a Baptist you should know very well that there's a difference, according to traditional Baptist definitions, between a creed and a doctrinal statement, regardless of what a dictionary says. In Baptist thought the two are certainly NOT synonymous.

The BF&M 2000 is to be used as an "instrument of doctrinal accountability," which elevates it to creedal status. Also, instead of leaving the issue of women pastors to the local church, the new creed specifically rejects women pastors.

If I remember corerctly, the Preamble was about to be eliminated, but some considered this as going too far, and it was kept or restored.

Also, in the so-called "conservative resurgence," the traditional Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of THE BELIEVER has given way to the priesthood of ALL BELIEVERS. A subtle change? Not to those who realize the implications.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Now, Bible-boy,

As a Baptist you should know very well that there's a difference, according to traditional Baptist definitions, between a creed and a doctrinal statement, regardless of what a dictionary says. In Baptist thought the two are certainly NOT synonymous.

You mean in your way of thinking about Baptist thought, right. I am not concerned with tradition. I want to be biblical nothing more and nothing less. As far as the words we use to define something they have meanings and we know what those meanings... mean! A creed and a doctrinal statement are both the explanation of one's beliefs. If you take one to mean something different than the other please explain how they are different in your view.

The BF&M 2000 is to be used as an "instrument of doctrinal accountability," which elevates it to creedal status. Also, instead of leaving the issue of women pastors to the local church, the new creed specifically rejects women pastors.

Nope...
the BF&M 2000 says that the messengers at the 2000 convention agreed that the Bible says that women can not be pastors. It is up to each autonomous Southern Baptist Church to determine if, that specific church, agrees with and accepts the BF&M 2000.

If I remember corerctly, the Preamble was about to be eliminated, but some considered this as going too far, and it was kept or restored.

I can't vouch for your memory or the validity of this statement. All I know is that the statement that you were so concerned about is still very much a part of the current BF&M.

Also, in the so-called "conservative resurgence," the traditional Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of THE BELIEVER has given way to the priesthood of ALL BELIEVERS. A subtle change? Not to those who realize the implications.

The implication is that everyone who claims to be a Southern Baptist cannot simply believe whatever they choose to believe and still be rightly defined as a Southern Baptist.

"Traditional Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of The Believer"? Would you mind quoting a handful of noteable Baptist Theologians from say the 1600s to the early 1900s that held this view that you are asserting?

As I recall the preisthood of All Believers was an issue that Martin Luther raised in the 1500s and protestant theologians, and Baptist theologians, have pretty much agreed with Luther's take on the issue (except liberal theologians who want to say that we all can believe whatever we want to believe).

Here is how Southern Baptist have dealt with this issue and the theological positions that drive the view (preisthood of THE BELIEVER) that you are asserting:

Baptists on The Priesthood of All Believers

1994 Report of the
Presidential Theological Study Committee

The Priesthood of All Believers

Every Christian has direct access to God through Jesus Christ, our great High Priest, the sole mediator between God and human beings. However, the priesthood of all believers is exercised within a committed community of fellow believers - priests who share a like precious faith. The priesthood of all believers should not be reduced to modern individualism, not used as a cover for theological relativism. It is a spiritual standing which leads to ministry, service, and a coherent witness in the world for which Christ died.


1988 Resolution On the Priesthood of the Believer

Adopted at the Southern Baptist Convention
Held in San Antonio, Texas, June 14-16, 1988 as Resolution No. 5

Whereas, None of the five major writing systematic theologians in Southern Baptist history have given more than a passing reference to the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer in their systematic theologies; and
Whereas, The Baptist Faith and Message preamble refers to the priesthood of the believer, but provides no definition or content to the term; and

Whereas, The high profile emphasis on the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer in Southern Baptist life is a recent historical development; and

Whereas, the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer has been used to justify wrongly the attitude that a Christian may believe whatever he so chooses and still be considered a loyal Southern Baptist; and

Whereas, the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer can been used to justify the undermining of pastoral authority in the local church.

Be it therefore resolved, That the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting in San Antonio, Texas, June 14-16, 1988, affirm its belief in the biblical doctrine of the priesthood of the believer (1 Peter 2:9 and Revelation 1:6); and
Be it further resolved, That we affirm that this doctrine in no way gives license to misinterpret, explain away, demythologize, or extrapolate out elements of the supernatural from the Bible; and

Be it further resolved, That the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer in no way contradicts the biblical understanding of the role, responsibility, and authority of the pastor which is seen in the command of the local church in Hebrews 13:17, "Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account;" and

Be finally resolved, That we affirm the truth that elders, or pastors, are called of God to lead the local church (Acts 20:28).


From the Report of the
Baptist Faith and Message Study Committee
to the Southern Baptist Convention
June 14, 2000

Baptists cherish and defend religious liberty, and deny the right of any secular or religious authority to impose a confession of faith upon a church or body of churches. We honor the principles of soul competency and the priesthood of believers, affirming together both our liberty in Christ and our accountability to each other under the Word of God.
Baptist churches, associations, and general bodies have adopted confessions of faith as a witness to the world, and as instruments of doctrinal accountability. We are not embarrassed to state before the world that these are doctrines we hold precious and as essential to the Baptist tradition of faith and practice.
As a committee, we have been charged to address the "certain needs" of our own generation. In an age increasingly hostile to Christian truth, our challenge is to express the truth as revealed in Scripture, and to bear witness to Jesus Christ, who is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
The 1963 committee rightly sought to identify and affirm "certain definite doctrines that Baptists believe, cherish, and with which they have been and are now closely identified." Our living faith is established upon eternal truths. "Thus this generation of Southern Baptists is in historic succession of intent and purpose as it endeavors to state for its time and theological climate those articles of the Christian faith which are most surely held among us."

It is the purpose of this statement of faith and message to set forth certain teachings which we believe.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Bible-boy,

Any objective person can see who is deviating from historic Baptist beliefs; hint: it isn't me doing the deviating.

A creed is mandatory and obligatory; a confession of faith is not. That is the historic Baptist position, and you know it. If you deny it, maybe you should brush up on Baptist history.

The doctrines of soul liberty and the priesthood of the believer were held and defended by E.Y. Mullins and Herschell Hobbs, for example. Of course, the current fundamentalist dictatorship does not look favorably on these two men, especially Mullins.

You can cite all the fundamentalist papal bulls and encyclicals you want, but that does not change the historic Baptist position on these doctrines. I notice you only cite those position papers put out by the SBC since the fundy takeover. How could you do otherwise, since the new SBC is a different animal from the pre-late seventies SBC. Sorry; the fundamentalists are the revisionists.

 

[rsr]

Baptists hold that God has given to every person the right to interpret the Scripture for himself. As we cannot be Baptists without the Bible, we must know personally for ourselves, what order of obedience it requires at our hands. To give up one of these positions is to give up both. But do not mistake me here, as to what we mean by private judgment, as a divine right. We do not think that men are at liberty to think of the Bible or not, to obey it or not, just as they please. But we think that they are bound to use judgment, and to govern it, by the facts and truths of the Bible. The liberty that we claim, is not to follow our own fancies, or predilections, in investigating the Bible, not merely to speculate upon it, and then diverge from its teachings if we choose to do so, because that would be criminal trifling. The right to investigate the truth does not carry with it the right to disobey it, or to doubt it, — that would convert the doctrine into rebellion against its author, which is evil, and cannot become a right. God allows every man to interpret the Bible for himself, in order that he may discover its fact and truths, and then honestly follow them in obedience. Hence, no church, or class of men in the church, can step in between the personal investigation of the man and the Bible, to interpret it for him by authority.

The Rev. Thomas Armitage, "Baptist Doctrine," 1892

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by rsr:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Baptists hold that God has given to every person the right to interpret the Scripture for himself. As we cannot be Baptists without the Bible, we must know personally for ourselves, what order of obedience it requires at our hands. To give up one of these positions is to give up both. But do not mistake me here, as to what we mean by private judgment, as a divine right. We do not think that men are at liberty to think of the Bible or not, to obey it or not, just as they please. But we think that they are bound to use judgment, and to govern it, by the facts and truths of the Bible. The liberty that we claim, is not to follow our own fancies, or predilections, in investigating the Bible, not merely to speculate upon it, and then diverge from its teachings if we choose to do so, because that would be criminal trifling. The right to investigate the truth does not carry with it the right to disobey it, or to doubt it, — that would convert the doctrine into rebellion against its author, which is evil, and cannot become a right. God allows every man to interpret the Bible for himself, in order that he may discover its fact and truths, and then honestly follow them in obedience. Hence, no church, or class of men in the church, can step in between the personal investigation of the man and the Bible, to interpret it for him by authority.

The Rev. Thomas Armitage, "Baptist Doctrine," 1892 </font>[/QUOTE]I agree 100% with the above quoted statement and would argue that this Traditional Baptist line of thinking draws a line at the position that the poster Michael Wrenn appears to be suggesting that any Southern Baptist may interpret the Bible to mean whatever he/she wants it to mean. The two sentences in the middle of the above quoted statement that I have italicized specifically speak against such a belief.

The only thing that I would wish to see better explained in the above quoted statement is the responsibility that we all share to ensure the teaching of sound doctrine and to stand against the teaching of false doctrine. As such if I had written the above quoted statement I would have added one more sentence to conclude:

However, as Bible believing Christians we are all honor bound to speak out against false teachings that derive from the failure to apply sound hermeneutical principles and poor exegesis of the biblical text resulting in the misinterpretation of the Word of God.

 

[rsr]

In context:

ARMITAGE ON SOUL LIBERTY

 

[rsr]

While I understand concerns about "private interpretation of scripture," it also is true that we as Baptists must reconcile scripture with what we have found to be true as priests before God.

God allows every man to interpret the Bible for himself, in order that he may discover its fact and truths, and then honestly follow them in obedience. Hence, no church, or class of men in the church, can step in between the personal investigation of the man and the Bible, to interpret it for him by authority.

I love the creeds and confessions, with the belief that they represent the understandings of Baptists at that time.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Bible-boy,

Any objective person can see who is deviating from historic Baptist beliefs; hint: it isn't me doing the deviating.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. However, it does not address the concern that I raised when I asked you to provide a handful of quotes from Baptist Theologians from the 1600s to the 1900s that would support your eariler claim.

A creed is mandatory and obligatory; a confession of faith is not.

Again, in your opinion. However, I respectfully disagree and provided definitions of the two terms that support why I disagree.

That is the historic Baptist position, and you know it. If you deny it, maybe you should brush up on Baptist history.

I do feel pretty sure about the position that I maintain having completed five semesters of Church History and Baptist History combined.

The doctrines of soul liberty and the priesthood of the believer were held and defended by E.Y. Mullins and Herschell Hobbs, for example. Of course, the current fundamentalist dictatorship does not look favorably on these two men, especially Mullins.

My Baptist History professor, Dr. Emir Caner, certainly spoke highly of these men and he is clearly a Baptist conservative. The problem is not with these men or their statements, but in the way that modern liberal thinkers of twisted their original intent and beliefs to mean something else (just like they do to the Scriptures).

You can cite all the fundamentalist papal bulls and encyclicals you want...

Being that we are not Roman Catholics I have no such documents to cite.

...but that does not change the historic Baptist position on these doctrines. I notice you only cite those position papers put out by the SBC since the fundy takeover. How could you do otherwise, since the new SBC is a different animal from the pre-late seventies SBC. Sorry; the fundamentalists are the revisionists.

Like I said I want to be biblical, nothing more and nothing less. Your reference to the SBC of the 1970s indicates to me that what you consider to be "Traditional Baptist positions" are derived from the liberal Baptist scholarship of the 1960s and 1970s and not, in fact, on the Traditional Baptist positions held before modern/post-modern scholastic thought and liberal theology became so popular.

 

[Bible-boy]

Below is a quote from Armitage regarding "Soul Liberty" and it clearly indicates something other than the position that Soul Liberty means that one can interpret the Bible to mean anything that ones sees fit for it to mean. The statement clearly uses the term "Soul Liberty" in connection with the rejection of the idea of a State enforced church or religion.

That a man is responsible to God, and to him only, for his faith and practice, so far as the infliction of any punishment for disobedience to God is concerned. Right here we deny the right of the civil magistrate, of the State, either to prescribe a form of religion for us, or to punish us for not following any religion they may prescribe. This we call soul-liberty, a freedom which we have obtained at a great price; the rack, the dungeon, the “bloody tenet,” the stake and the gibbet. Baptist have ever resisted the right of the State to establish the church by law, to tolerate the conformists of that church, and put its nonconformists under pains and penalties—or to interfere with the free exercise of a man’s religion, be it as it may. We may regret that all men are not Christians, and wish that they were, and we may wish that they held Christian principles as we hold them, but we have no right to force their doctrines by law, and others have no right to force their doctrines upon us by human statute. We hold that if a man chooses to be a Mohammedan, a Jew, a Pagan, a Roman Catholic, a Protestant or an Infidel, he has a right to be that, so far as the civil law is concerned.

by Rev. Thomas Armitage D.D.

Taken from a book entitled, Baptist Doctrine, 1892.

[ December 12, 2003, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Bible-boy,

I am not a liberal; I am as opposed to the Alliance of Baptists, for instance, as I am to the current SBC.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

rsr,

Thanks for the posts.

"Hence, no church, or class of men in the church, can step in between the personal investigation of the man and the Bible, to interpret it for him by authority." I believe the SBC has departed from this and other principles espoused by Armitage.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
rsr,

Thanks for the posts.

"Hence, no church, or class of men in the church, can step in between the personal investigation of the man and the Bible, to interpret it for him by authority." I believe the SBC has departed from this and other principles espoused by Armitage.

Micheal,

Has the current SBC leadership imposed doctrine on your local church?

The answer is NO.

All the SBC leadership has said with the approval of the messengers of the Convention is that if you're going to take a salary paid for by cooperative program dollars you're going to have to teach according to the BF&M 2000.

As a local Church Pastor this has not affected me and my ministry one iota except give me a lot more confidence that when I send a student to one of our seminaries I'm not going to have to worry about them being taught liberalism in disguise.

 

[Matt Black]

If a church wants to be part of the SBC, it seems only fair and reasonable that it and its members shouls subscribe to BF&M2K.

That said, I think (in my great humility )that BF&M2K is wrong on this point. Specifically on I Tim 2 quoted from earlier, proper exegesis on this passage is vital.I Tim 2 is dealing with the gnostic Eve cult at Ephesus-authentein , translated 'authority'in I Tim 2:12 has sexual connotations and has been found in secular Greek literature of the time to describe the techniques prostitutes used to seduce their clients. Nowhere else in the NT is authentein used; the usual word for 'authority', occurring countless times in the NT, exousia , is not used in I Tim 2. The whole passage is about the Scriptural refutation of the gnostic heresy Timothy was faced with, not about the prohibition on women teaching: the gnostics were saying "Hey,Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge first, so women as daughters of Eve are possessed of greater spiritual knowledge than men and therefore we women are superiorly qualified and entitled to teach men"; Paul says in response, "No, you're wrong; Eve wasn't endowed with knowledge first, she was deceived first, therefore those who assert this cannot teach or have authority but should learn first instead". That's what it is about. I read it this way, as a detailed reply to each of the heresy's points:-

1. Gnostic heresy: "women can have sexual authority over men and communicate their 'knowledge' via that means".

I Tim 2:12 (Paul and Holy Spirit)- "no, that's not true - women are not to 'teach' and have 'authority' in this manner."

2. GH: "Woman as being formed after man represents a superior development of the human species"

I Tim 2:13: "Adam was made first (implication being he was first in order of authority)"

3. GH: "Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge first and thus became possessed of the secret 'knowledge' referred to in 1"

I Tim 2:14:"No, Eve was deceived first b doing this"

4. GH: "Eve was raised up and exalted and to be worshipped (sexually) by Man because of the above achievement"

I Tim 2:15: "No, Eve fell because of this, but she (womankind) can be saved through the birth of Jesus and the salvation He brings to her - that's the only way out for her"

Otherwise the passage doesn't square with I Cor 11, references to Junias as an apostle, Philip's daughters prophesying etc

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
If a church wants to be part of the SBC, it seems only fair and reasonable that it and its members should subscribe to BF&M2K.

Why?

Especially if a particular church existed before the SBC came into existence and already had an Articles of Faith in place 19 years before the SBC was formed.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Bible-boy,

I've reread my responses to you, and I want to say that I regret the tone of some of them. No excuses, although I've been attacked by so many Roman Catholics and fundamentalists on several message boards that I've gotten defensive.

I still disagree with you just as strongly, but from now on I'll attempt to do so in a more "agreeable" manner.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
If a church wants to be part of the SBC, it seems only fair and reasonable that it and its members should subscribe to BF&M2K.

Why?

Especially if a particular church existed before the SBC came into existence and already had an Articles of Faith in place 19 years before the SBC was formed. </font>[/QUOTE]I appreciate your point, but if BF&M2K was agreed by the SBC in Convention, then that is the will of the majority of the Convention; the dissenting minority then have two choices - either submit to the will of the convention, or leave (they can either form a new association/ convention like the CBF did, or have no association at all and be completely Independent). That may seem a little harsh, but I don't think it is unfair; if we as congregations associate/'Convene' by agreement between us, then it is fair to say that when agreement can no longer be reached, then we should cease to associate in that manner or on that level.

Yours in Christ

Matt