SBC Calvinists

[El_Guero]

Now you've gone for polling to politicking . . . .

Well, I've had to do a fair amount of surveys in my work. I've learned a lot about what NOT to do by watching what the vendors and publications did. They had an agenda, so they asked questions that would lead the respondents to answer the way the publication wanted them to answer. So they got the best results money could buy.

Consequently, I've learned how to do surveys in such a way that you are more likely to get honest, useful information. And I've learned that one of the least effective ways to get honest, useful information is to just ask a plain question like "are you a 5-point Calvinist?" People have motives to say they are when they know they aren't. Or to say they aren't when they know they are. People will say they are (or aren't) when they don't know what it really means. And so on.

All this survey shows is that 85% of SBC pastors say they're 5-point Calvinists. Assuming they were all honest, the most you can get from the results is that 85% of SBC pastors, given whatever they think 5-Point Calvinism means, are of the opinion that they are 5-point Calvinists. That isn't very good information, is it?

If, instead, you do a survey that keeps the person unaware of what information you really want, you can ask questions about doctrine that will tell you a lot more about what the person really knows and believes. The results would be a whole lot more accurate because the person surveyed would be answering questions according to his beliefs without knowing that you simply want to know if they're a 5-point calvinist. That removes the motivation to lie, it removes the people who would say they are but don't understand the doctrine, etc.

The second bold was right . . . the poll said that 85% say they are not 5-point Calvinists

:1_grouphug:

 

[Andy T.]

I would be curious to see how many of the 85% non-C's would consider themselves 4-pointers. Maybe another 10%? Just a guess.

 

[webdog]

I would be curious to see how many of the 85% non-C's would consider themselves 4-pointers. Maybe another 10%? Just a guess.

If you are a 3 or 4 pointer, you are not a calvinist. The system stands and falls on all 5 points.

 

[Andy T.]

If you are a 3 or 4 pointer, you are not a calvinist. The system stands and falls on all 5 points.

Not really interested in debating the semantics of what is and what is not a "Calvinist"; just curious how many would consider themselves to holding 4 of the points.

 

[webdog]

Not really interested in debating the semantics of what is and what is not a "Calvinist"; just curious how many would consider themself to holding 4 of the points.

Then start making some phone calls

 

[Jack Matthews]

Since this is a poll of pastors, is anyone wondering about the 4% who responded "don't know"? I sure hope my pastor knows enough about theology to know who he is and what he believes!

 

[webdog]

Since this is a poll of pastors, is anyone wondering about the 4% who responded "don't know"? I sure hope my pastor knows enough about theology to know who he is and what he believes!

I thought the same thing...but in all fairness some people have different definitions of what TULIP means. It would depend on a particular definition of each to make a clear assessment.

 

[npetreley]

Now you've gone for polling to politicking . . . .



The second bold was right . . . the poll said that 85% say they are not 5-point Calvinists

:1_grouphug:

LOL! Yeah, sorry for the typo. The error actually popped into my head as I was falling asleep, but I was too lazy to get up and fix it. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Andy T.]

I thought the same thing...but in all fairness some people have different definitions of what TULIP means. It would depend on a particular definition of each to make a clear assessment.

I agree - those answering "don't know" might have needed more information before answering yes or no. They might have wanted to know how to define "5-point Calvinist". To be honest, that would be my first reaction, too. If someone asks me that question, my first response would be, "Define your terms and then I'll answer."

 

[gb93433]

I would be curious to see how many of the 85% non-C's would consider themselves 4-pointers. Maybe another 10%? Just a guess.

I know some who are six-pointers.

 

[Bro Tony]

This poll was for SBC pastors. Gotta read that fine print.

Man I gotta get some stronger glasses.:smilewinkgrin:

Bro Tony

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

What this tells me is that even though Calvinists make up a very small part of the SBC, Calvinism is continually presented as the Southern Baptist theologically position primarily due to the influence of a small group of vocal supporters led by the seminaries, particulary Southern.

 

[Jerome]

Not really interested in debating the semantics of what is and what is not a "Calvinist"; just curious how many would consider themselves to holding 4 of the points.

The following may interest you:

In a 1974 survey, GARBC pastors identified themselves as:

1 Hyper-Calvinist
174 Five-Point Calvinist
43 Four-to-Five Point Calvinist
430 Four-Point Calvinist
27 Calvinistic
5 Sovereignity of God
20 Biblicist
1 Arminian
108 Other

Another relevant response:
Do you consider the mainstream of Baptist thought and life to have been:
694 essentially Calvinistic
13 essentially Arminian
16 both Calvinistic and Arminian
54 other

from Kenneth H. Good, Are Baptists Calvinists?

"Four-Point Calvinists" believe in particular redemption but fear being smeared by those who deem all Five-Point Calvinists Hyper-Calvinists.

 

[npetreley]

What this tells me is that even though Calvinists make up a very small part of the SBC, Calvinism is continually presented as the Southern Baptist theologically position primarily due to the influence of a small group of vocal supporters led by the seminaries, particulary Southern.

Is this really true? If it's the official theological position, why do so few SBC churches hold to it?

 

[Brother Bob]

I think the 10% are on here

I am not naming names.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Is this really true? If it's the official theological position, why do so few SBC churches hold to it?

No, obviously it's not true and I am very pleasantly surprised. I'm just saying what my own impressions were before seeing this information.

 

[El_Guero]

One important element of the history of Calvinism within Baptists in America is often overlooked.

Until Southern was founded, about 1859, Baptists in the south could go to the reformed seminaries of Presbyterians . . . or almost not at all.

When you first generations of school trained pastors (& later seminary professors) are reformed trained, one should expect the reformed theological training to influence the theology of the students . . .

IMHO.

 

[Southern]

El Guero stated:

One important element of the history of Calvinism within Baptists in America is often overlooked.

Until Southern was founded, about 1859, Baptists in the south could go to the reformed seminaries of Presbyterians . . . or almost not at all.

When you first generations of school trained pastors (& later seminary professors) are reformed trained, one should expect the reformed theological training to influence the theology of the students . . .

IMHO.

James P. Boyce, Southern Seminary's first president, was a Calvinist.

You mention them having to go to Presbyterian seminaries. While this certainly may have had some influence, it did not "change" Baptists in their soteriology since they agreed with the Presbyterian's on this issue (compare the 1689 LBC and Philadelphia CF to the Westminster CF).

The Philadelphia Confession adopted by that association simply brought their Particular Baptist (Particular denoting their view of the atonement in distinction to "General") confession to America.

 

[npetreley]

The Philadelphia Confession adopted by that association simply brought their Particular Baptist (Particular denoting their view of the atonement in distinction to "General") confession to America.

This is what confuses me. The 1689 Baptist confession is clearly Calvinist in its soteriology. So why is today's Baptist church so semi-pelagian? Is there no connection here? Was that a confession that is not respected by today's Baptist church for some reason? What is the reason? Were those who compiled the 1689 confession some "other" type of Baptists?