SBC Seminaries (cont.)

[All about Grace]

Dr.Mohler wants this seminary to be as Biblical as possible. He is a Calvinist, and has not softened his stance.

He has not softened his personal beliefs, but he has made an effort to "move away" from some of the more hard core Calvinists (in spirit) in the convention that have surfaced in recent years.

Most of the profs are Calvinistic

Calvinistic is a subjective term. Also it probably depends upon which school you are speaking about.

SBTS has seen an amazing amount of growth the past 5 years or so, and it is the fastest growing of the 6 schools. So, this effort by some has had little impact on thos who choose to attend.

SBTS has definitely grown in my 7 years there. I am not sure it is the fastest growing seminary though. As far as what impact certain leaders may have on the growth rate, it is hard to know what impact they might have. If a certain group of the prominent pastors in the SBC begin to discourage their students from attending Southern (which is the rumor), then it will have an impact. There is no way to know how much of an impact other than the fact many of these students will filter into the other seminaries.

The PhD program here is incredible (as you should know, SBC by Grace) and is highly competitive. It is not feeling any effects of poor-mouthing.

The PhD program is definitely one of the top in SBC circles.

Again, we cannot know if the seminary is feeling any effects or not. Students that are being directed in another direction will simply attend another seminary. We have no idea how many students that might be.

Calvinism w/in the convention is growing and likewise those wanting a strong, conservative (calvinistic-leaning) theological training have a place to go. It juts happens to be the best SBC seminary and the most-respected academically. (is that a coincidence?? hmm)

I am not sure the data would support your assertion on Calvinism. I think the SBC simply has different battles now than it did 20+ years ago, so Calvinism has surfaced as an issue. Many of the profs at SBTS who are more reformed are not pure-bred Southern Baptists.

Again I would emphasize that there is an innate danger at Southern of beginning to attract only a certain type of student. The danger also lies in the fact the student usually goes a step further than the teacher (which is part of the reason Calvinism has had such a roller-coaster ride in the last few centuries). I have already heard of unwise (for lack of a better term) students causing havoc in their home churches over this issue. Big, big mistake.

I have had students visit my church and one of their first questions is: "Are you a 5-pointer?" Such thinking misprioritizes the goal of a seminary.

BTW, I have spoken with Mohler regarding this issue on more than one occasion, and he definitely sees the potential dangers. A seminary will not only reflect its president, but its students will often misrepresent him (in the name of religious zeal).

I love SBTS and support it. It is definitely in my mind the best academic seminary of the six.

I would simply paraphrase Jerry Vines as a needed reminder: The moment a seminary causes a student to lose their heart for the Bible or their passion for souls it has failed its purpose.

The first statement defines the pre-Mohler Southern. We can only pray that the second statement does not describe the direction Southern is headed.

 

[Siegfried]

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
I would simply paraphrase Jerry Vines as a needed reminder: The moment a seminary causes a student to lose their heart for the Bible or their passion for souls it has failed its purpose.

The first statement defines the pre-Mohler Southern. We can only pray that the second statement does not describe the direction Southern is headed.

Southern has (IMO) a greater chance of being theologically sound 50 years from now than less reformed SBC seminaries precisely because of that heart for the Bible. Pragmatic theology is still rearing its ugly head among some SBC leaders, and I fear that this will ultimately lead to a collapse of the resurgence when powerful personalities fade from the scene.

If the SBC stays the course, it will be because of the theological foundation of SBTS and similar theology departments at other SBC seminaries.

And I'm NOT suggesting that a passion for souls should be minimized. I do believe that a passion for souls can only be sustained where the accompanying theology is based on Scripture, not pragmatism.

 

[All about Grace]

Southern has (IMO) a greater chance of being theologically sound 50 years from now than less reformed SBC seminaries precisely because of that heart for the Bible. Pragmatic theology is still rearing its ugly head among some SBC leaders, and I fear that this will ultimately lead to a collapse of the resurgence when powerful personalities fade from the scene.

If the SBC stays the course, it will be because of the theological foundation of SBTS and similar theology departments at other SBC seminaries.

And I'm NOT suggesting that a passion for souls should be minimized. I do believe that a passion for souls can only be sustained where the accompanying theology is based on Scripture, not pragmatism.

And I would simply say that when the balance between theology and practice is lost, there will be no students to preserve the integrity of the message.

As I mentioned in another post, there is an isolationist threat that looms over those who emphasize the academy at the expense of the local church ministry. When that occurs, the ivory tower syndrome takes over. When my education prevents me from doing practical real-life ministry, it has failed me.

 

[Siegfried]

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
And I would simply say that when the balance between theology and practice is lost, there will be no students to preserve the integrity of the message.

I don't think theology and practice are entities that need to be balanced. Orthopraxy proceeds from orthodoxy.

A student or institution that is not correct in its practice really has a theological problem. The words may be right, but if the practice isn't right it is demonstrated that the words are not truly believed.

On the other hand, a person or institution that does the right things without right theology is (dare I say?) lucky. Perhaps it would be better to say that they are correct in spite of themselves. Such a person or institution has no anchor and will drift eventually.

 

[All about Grace]

I don't think theology and practice are entities that need to be balanced. Orthopraxy proceeds from orthodoxy.

A student or institution that is not correct in its practice really has a theological problem. The words may be right, but if the practice isn't right it is demonstrated that the words are not truly believed.

On the other hand, a person or institution that does the right things without right theology is (dare I say?) lucky. Perhaps it would be better to say that they are correct in spite of themselves. Such a person or institution has no anchor and will drift eventually.

I can agree with the essentiality of correct doctrine to preserve a heritage. I can also testify of many who have all of their i's dotted and their t's crossed theologically but have not shared their faith with a lost person in a very long time. Sometimes there is a distinguishable gap between the world of the academy and the reality of ministry.

BTW, Being a Calvinistic school does not equal being a school that is sound theologically.

 

[Siegfried]

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
I can agree with the essentiality of correct doctrine to preserve a heritage. I can also testify of many who have all of their i's dotted and their t's crossed theologically but have not shared their faith with a lost person in a very long time. Sometimes there is a distinguishable gap between the world of the academy and the reality of ministry.

I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. The quote below that I posted above addresses that very issue.

A student or institution that is not correct in its practice really has a theological problem. The words may be right, but if the practice isn't right it is demonstrated that the words are not truly believed.

The practice I'm referring to would obviously include evangelism. I doubt that SBTS is squelching evangelism, but students who have a skewed theology may not be catching that part of the vision.

Originally posted by SBCbyGRACE:
BTW, Being a Calvinistic school does not equal being a school that is sound theologically.

Well, now that's a matter of opinion.

 

[All about Grace]

I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. The quote below that I posted above addresses that very issue.

And if what you are saying is correct, we have probably disqualified a large percentage of both profs and students.

 

[JGrayhound]

Dr.Mohler is definitely staying away from the "pushy" calvinist-type. The guys that want to sit around and discuss ONLY that ALL the time. Most of those guys aren't in the SBC, but in other academic circles. You can tell he is trying to appear less like them. But, he is definitely not softening his views.

 

[D.R.]

I have heard that MWBTS is failing as well. One friend on mine who went to visit over the Spring 2002 semester said that there was only 1 pastoral ministry student at that campus and that their enrollment was severely lower than he thought it was before he went. I may be wrong, so if anyone had a definate knowledge about this, please share,
WE HOLLA
dr

 

[TomVols]

That is the exact opposite of what I'm told from colleagues at MWBTS. Dr. Phil Roberts has his work cut out for him, but DR's caricature may not be accurate.

 

[NateT]

I visited MBTS in Sept 02. We have a couple friends there and were also considering it. I don't think its failing. I definitely think Dr. Robert's will help that seminary tremendously, but that may or may not be a long way off. It is definitely a small school, smallest of the 6 at around 500 students (includes online and extension center).

From what I've heard/read about Roberts I'd expect them to have an emphasis on missions. In fact when I was there he was on a mission trip, supposedly to a country that they couldn't say.

 

[Trapper]

To those currently at NOBTS

I graduated a couple years ago and I'm curious about the theology professors. Then there was 2 reform minded theology profs and one that absolutely wasn't. Is this still the situation. Also, while pleased with my NOBTS experience, if I did it all over I would be at Southern simply for its Reformed stance.
Ol Trapper

 

[TaterTot]

Drs. Norman and Stewart are there now. Are they the same ones you were thinking of? PS was your wife music secretary for a while there?

 

[Trapper]

Yes Tater-tot. Your smart. I guess the Brazil part told you who I was.
Ol Trapper

 

[TaterTot]

Trapper, It was actually your email address in your profile as well as the Brazil part. Are yall back stateside yet? I knew your wife when I was a music student at seminary a couple of years back. My husband is still working on his PhD there, but we dont live there anymore. See if she recognizes my picture, if she has time. I am glad to finally see someone from NOBTS posting here! There was one guy who was waaaaay liberal, but he doesnt post here anymore.
Minha melhor amiga e brasileira. Eu entendo muito mais nao falo bem. Ciao!

 

[Trapper]

Hey Tater
We're back and pastoring a church in Georgia. We miss Brasil greatly. We both reconized you from the picture. I trust the new little one is keeping you busy.
Trapper