For many alcoholics - generational alcoholics, yes.
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- Thread starter Judith
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For many alcoholics - generational alcoholics, yes.
Who says homosexuals are "given up on"? I see where they are given over to their lusts but some of these have been saved. I don't understand the given up part.
Not sure how you are seeing a difference here. If God has given up on them or given them over to their lusts means the same thing. Where Hamel gets it wrong is that he narrows it down to just homosexuality. That is not the reading or the context of that passage. If he will look closely the reason for giving them over to their lusts (ie homsexuality, drunkeness etc) is because the rejected God. This is made clear in v.21 look here:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
In vs. 32 it says:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
So they knew God, they understood that there is a God, they understood their need for God and they understood His judgment and rejected Him anyway. The homosexuality and drunkeness etc. just grew all the more because God reached a point where He turned them over to themselves. Verse 26 says that God gave them up.
I don't understand the given up part.
Romans 1:28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
JonC, it wouldn't be proper English to say..., "God (given) them over to a...."
I might be wrong here but if they were "gave" up on then they were "given" up on. No? Otherwise, I don't get it all myself.
Romans 1:28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
JonC, it wouldn't be proper English to say..., "God (given) them over to a...."
I might be wrong here but if they were "gave" up on then they were "given" up on. No? Otherwise, I don't get it all myself.
Thanks for explaining. I was taking "given up on" in terms of salvation (not being extended towards homosexuals - which Paul seems to contradict in his words to Corinth). But I take it you mean a group involved in sin (rev is right, it isn't isolated to this one sin). I don't think given over to degrading passions actually means given up on. But do you mean there is a point where grace will no longer be extended or that they are given over to their passions (consumed by that sinful desire) yet still able to be redeemed?
JonC, I am under the impression that no matter how down in the gutter one finds themselves they can be redeemed if they come to Jesus.
As I understand this "gave them over to..." is exactly that. He gave them over to a "reprobate mind". Just as those will suffer with that coming "strong delusion". He leaves them to their own devices which is their lust.
Media reports these folks "love" each other but to me..., it's lust..., not love. Big difference but who am I to say?
As I understand this "gave them over to..." is exactly that. He gave them over to a "reprobate mind". Just as those will suffer with that coming "strong delusion". He leaves them to their own devices which is their lust.
Media reports these folks "love" each other but to me..., it's lust..., not love. Big difference but who am I to say?
Considering Paul speaks of the effeminate and the homosexual and then says "and such were some of you....", I'd think that one can absolutely leave that lifestyle. But we know that sometimes God removes our sinful desires and other times it is a struggle through our lives.
That's also my understanding. The sin that takes root overcomes as they/we cling to sin. They were "given over to....", not "given up on."
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Okay, I know this is not the Bible Versions form, but really! "Not convenient" is terribly archaic here. Some better choices follow:
NIV,ESV, : what ought not to be done
NLT : things that should never be done
NASB : to do things which are not proper
HCSB : to do what is morally wrong
NET : to do what should not be done
Weymouth : to do things which should not be done
The NLT is my preferred choice here. The other renderings weaken the force of the meaning in my estimation.
why though?
Homosexuals before saved by Grace of God would see themselves as sexually identiifed as being gay, and they can and do change when emabled by new life in Christ...
And we are to still be friendly with them if at all possible, and share christ with them, correct?
I did not see it saying that the SBC now recognises gay Marriages, nor that the lifestyle is not sinful, did you?