SBTS - Mohler lays out 'core values'

While some lament the fact that the leadership in the SBC has replaced the 1963 BFM with the 2000 version, I find it lamentable that the 1925 BFM was replaced by the '63, and that the '25 "replaced" the Abstract of Principles - which is still the doctrinal statement at SBTS (and was at SEBTS until Paige Patterson had it changed to the 2000). If we want to go back to what Southern Baptists "used" to believe, let's really go back!

 

Can you provide me some verifiable evidence that SEBTS has declined in enrollment since the early 90s? I believe BP reported a 3% increase this year, so just provide some evidence that the school has declined in the past decade.

Again SBTS is going to remain around the same size regardless of what happens. I know enrollment has arisen the past few years, but as the flagship seminary, little will change.

I am not familiar enough with the other schools to comment, but I would be interesting in seeing the hard core data that supports your assertions.

 

For all of you who keep referring to SBTS as the "flagship" seminary, just a friendly reminder that Southwestern is the largest SBC seminary and sends out over 50% of our SBC missionaries. Not only that, but most of the men who head up our SBC agencies, etc., are SWBTS graduates.

Ironic, though, that the president of SWBTS is a SBTS grad.

Rev. G

 

I believe "flagship" simply refers to the historical supremacy of SBTS over the others. It has always been viewed as the "grandfather" seminary where all the original SBCers set the course for the convention.

SWBTS is definitely bigger (as is most everything in Texas from what I hear ).

I am personally a graduate of 2 of our fine SBC institutions (soon to be 3 if I can finish comps and a dissertation, maintain a family of 5, pastor a full-time growing church, and post a few thoughts on this time-killer known as BaptistBoard).

 

Whatever!?!
I don't feel like rehashing this well worn topic.

 

Sorry Rev.G.,

You have your facts a bit wrong on this one. Dr. Patterson did not change the doctrinal statement of SEBTS from the Abstract of Principles to the 2000 BF&M. We still use the Abstract of Principles. We also use the 2000 BF&M. I just watched three (if I am not confusing it with the previous semester) professors sign the Abstract of Principles and the 2000 BF&M at the first Chapel service of this (the 2002 fall semester) here at SEBTS. So you see, we use both.

[ October 25, 2002, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

Then Baptist Press had it wrong back in the spring. Sorry.

Rev. G

 

This is not true. Administrators I worked with from the liberal days of the seminary lament and mock the fact that more people are going into ministry now, unlike the "hey dey" of the seminary when you had more people who wanted to be scholars, professors, or work at theological think-tanks. I work with this data often still, and the number of seminarians now entering church or mission work has increased drastically since the days of the liberal control.

[ October 25, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

Yep, Southeastern does have a bachelor's degree (or two, or three) now that it did not used to offer. What is your point? Are you trying to say that a person with a B.A. in Biblical Studies cannot serve in full-time ministry? If so, that does not wash with the traditional Baptist stance on education for pastors. As far as I know a man can be ordained as a Baptist pastor with no formal education.

Likewise, as a current student as Southeastern I do not know what you are referring to when you say, "the number of non-degree students there is quite high." In both the college and the seminary one can take up to 30 semester hours without a declared major. However, that does not mean that such students are not seeking a degree.

Can you document these claims? I just read that New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary has recorded over 3,000 students enrolled. Here at SEBTS we are close to that number as well. SBTS is reporting over 2,400. I don't know about SWBTS, GGBTS, or MWBTS. However, I did read that MWBTS just purchased more land and a fifty room facility to accomadate their growth.

Likewise, I know that here at SEBTS before Dr. Patterson came the enrollment had dropped to around 400 students and there was talk of closing the school. A large dorm was boarded up and un-used. The library had every other light fixture disconnected in an attempt to save money on electricity. The enrollment was so low that they could hardly afford to pay the electric bill!

Needless to say, it is not like that around here today. Our student housing, including major new construction, is almost at capacity. All the light fixtures in all the buildings burn bright. We are starting to run short of parking space. Our "Two Plus Two" missions students are in the greatest demand by countries all over the world. Our church planters are active all over the U.S. Furthermore, we have partnered with the state conventions of NH and ME with the goal of planting 50 new SBC churches within 10 years. We are halfway through that process and right on track. As I said before, if this is decline then let's decline some more!

[ October 26, 2002, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

Certainly my home state of Mississippi is not in the "clutches" of CBF, as you put it, nor are most of the other state conventions which did not adopt the new Southern Baptist creed. Mississippi Baptists and others just take the Baptist heritage and principles seriously; they don't like being told what to believe from someone on high--other than God. That rules out the Bishops and College of Cardinals in Nashville.

 

Sorry; I meant to address my post above to Bibleboy.

 

Since I don't really think this is the appropriate thread to discuss this, I'm going to start a new one under "Baptist History." However, the issue will be "What is our Southern Baptist heritage?", and "What are Southern Baptist principles?"

 

Hello Michael,

You can't claim that the Southern Baptist Convention, made up of Southern Baptist messengers from local churches from all over the U.S., constitutes "someone on high," or "Bishops and College of Cardinal in Nashville." Likewise, no one can force any local Southern Baptist Church to affirm any form of the BF&M. The current BF&M is simply a doctrinal statement that the majority of messengers to the 2000 SBC voted to accept. If any group has concerns regarding its content then all they need to do is organize themselves and send enough messengers to the next SBC and vote in favor of something else. However, each local Southern Baptist congregation will have the same right to either affirm or reject any future modification. No one is telling anybody what to believe. The thing to keep in mind is that the current BF&M reflects what the majority of Southern Baptist messengers to the 2000 Convention say they believe. If you don't agree with them that is fine.

[ October 29, 2002, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

One thing that makes my heart sick on this board are the attacks on one another. I guess I especially feel that way about the Southern Baptists. I am not a Southern Baptist (there are no SBC churches in this county). I was, however, saved by grace and the blood of Jesus in a Southern Baptist church at college. I thank God for the (then) Home Mission Board who sponsered a small church in Ames, Iowa. i never even met a Baptist (of any flavor) before that. So fight all you want, but I thank God for the Southern Baptist Convention.

 

Do you websites where these all are?

 

You may find a comparison of the 1925, 1963 and 2000 editions of the Baptist Faith & Message at:
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfmcomparison.asp

For the Abstract of Principles, you may go to:
http://www.founders.org/abstract.html

Rev. G