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SBTS Theology Dean: Calvinism Obsessives Reminiscent of D&D Clubs

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Dean of Theology Russell Moore takes overly-fixated theological enthusiasts to task:

Moore To the Point Blog (Aug. 29) Dungeons and Dragons and Doctrinal Debate
Remember those Dungeons and Dragons people back in junior high school? Well, they grew up, got saved, and are now debating Calvinism
all too often, it seems to me that these debates are so intense for reasons other than just fidelity to Scripture.
The Dungeons and Dragons clubs came to mind because those guys, at least in my junior high school, seemed to be obsessed

Sound familar?
 

Winman

Active Member
I have always heard there are two things you should never discuss in public, religion and politics. I have found this good advice, folks have strong feelings on both, so there is always a good possibility you will find yourself in a heated debate with either subject. I doubt D & D has anything to do with it, although there is some truth that folks identify themselves by both their religion and political views and take disagreement personally.
 

Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I've taken to task calvinists on this board who create threads that are derogatory towards non-calvinists; in the interest of fairness, I have to point out: It's somewhat shallow of us to do the same thing towards them.

Does this belong in the Theology and Bible Study section? Or is this a topic for General Baptist discussion? And further, how will discussion of this subject clarify scripture, or edify us?
 

SolaSaint

Well-Known Member
I kinda like being obsessed about scripture and the doctrines of grace. Better than being obsessed about purpose or vision.
 
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kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I kinda like being obsessed about scripture and the doctrines of grace. Better than being obsessed about purpose or vision.

:thumbsup:

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, Nor standeth in the way of sinners, Nor sitteth in the seat of scoffers:
2 But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps 1
 
:thumbsup:

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, Nor standeth in the way of sinners, Nor sitteth in the seat of scoffers:
2 But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps 1

amen wish that I had posted that!
 

Tom Bryant

Well-Known Member
I've taken to task calvinists on this board who create threads that are derogatory towards non-calvinists; in the interest of fairness, I have to point out: It's somewhat shallow of us to do the same thing towards them.

Does this belong in the Theology and Bible Study section? Or is this a topic for General Baptist discussion? And further, how will discussion of this subject clarify scripture, or edify us?

You all do realize that Dr. Moore is a Calvinist.

I think that his point applies to anyone who always makes every argument about a particular doctrine. Sort of like the preacher who always had preached from Luke 2: 1. The miraculous Birth of Jesus 2. The Miraculous Purpose of Jesus Birth 3. Now a Word about Baptism.

There are people on here who make every thread about the KJV or about how unloving conservatives are or how Obama is out to make Muslims of us all.

The verses in Psalm 1 are about the law of the Lord in its entireity, not just the laws that we really like or are excited about. Salvation is about more than any system of soteriology.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
I've taken to task calvinists on this board who create threads that are derogatory towards non-calvinists; in the interest of fairness, I have to point out: It's somewhat shallow of us to do the same thing towards them.

Does this belong in the Theology and Bible Study section? Or is this a topic for General Baptist discussion? And further, how will discussion of this subject clarify scripture, or edify us?

I've not seen you take a Calvinist "to task" over their Scriptural truths on this board. Ever.

To the OP. D&D and calvinism similiraties? Talk about digging deep and under every rock to discredit truth. This OP takes the blue ribbon!
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
.....The verses in Psalm 1 are about the law of the Lord in its entireity, not just the laws that we really like or are excited about. Salvation is about more than any system of soteriology.

....and that's exactly how I intended it.

On another note, it amazes me that the OT Saints were able to derive that great 'delight' from the incomplete word of God as they did. They had only a fraction of what we have, and without the revelation of the NT. David said,"I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil." It convinces me of the indwelling of the Spirit within the OT Saints; the Spirit HAD to be the source of the delight and joy in the law.
 

Tom Butler

New Member
Maybe "obsession" is not quite the right word, but I think I understand where Dr. Moore is coming from.

I remember when I first discovered the Doctrines of Grace. I bought the whole package. I thought everybody should know about this wonderful discovery, and sort of became a nuisance. I asked my pastor about it (a non-Cal) and he really didn't want to talk about it. I asked the associate pastor (a non-Cal). His response was, "well, you can believe like a Calvinists,but you better preach like a Fundamentalist." (BTW, is now pastors a church which is fully Calvinist. Years afterward, he bought the package,too).

I learned later that folks hated to see me coming.

After I figured out that most folks were not as enamored with this new-found treasure as I was, I backed off somewhat.

I've heard that other newly-minted DoGs have had reactions similar to mine.

I've also found that whichever side you come down on, you can't do it dispassionately. Calvinism stirs emotions on both sides.

You think Calvinists have an obsession with the doctrine? Read the Baptist Board. There are some non-Cals who seem to have an obsession with fighting it.
 

preachinjesus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think this is great! I completely understand and appreciate the perspective the Dr. Moore is approaching the discussion from.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Maybe "obsession" is not quite the right word, but I think I understand where Dr. Moore is coming from.

I remember when I first discovered the Doctrines of Grace. I bought the whole package. I thought everybody should know about this wonderful discovery, and sort of became a nuisance. I asked my pastor about it (a non-Cal) and he really didn't want to talk about it. I asked the associate pastor (a non-Cal). His response was, "well, you can believe like a Calvinists,but you better preach like a Fundamentalist." (BTW, is now pastors a church which is fully Calvinist. Years afterward, he bought the package,too).

I learned later that folks hated to see me coming.

After I figured out that most folks were not as enamored with this new-found treasure as I was, I backed off somewhat.

I've heard that other newly-minted DoGs have had reactions similar to mine.

I've also found that whichever side you come down on, you can't do it dispassionately. Calvinism stirs emotions on both sides.

You think Calvinists have an obsession with the doctrine? Read the Baptist Board. There are some non-Cals who seem to have an obsession with fighting it.

I resemble this acount you've given. I went through a 'militant' stage with it; I guess in some ways I felt as if I'd been lied to all my life. Anyway, I calmed down a whole lot when I came to the PBs; I had found a whole people that believed just as I, and also found I still yet had much to learn. Their preaching is amazing.
 

Tom Butler

New Member
If a non-Cal wrote what Dr. Moore wrote, most of us DoGs would pretty much brush it off. Since it a DoG writing about DoGs, maybe we ought to pay attention.
 

mandym

New Member
I am shocked that so many would support such belittling and demeaning language from an institution of higher learning. Sad
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
I am shocked that so many would support such belittling and demeaning language from an institution of higher learning. Sad

An institution of higher learning is not about making its students feel comfortable and giving them the warm & fuzzies.

Quite the contrary, the institution should confront, challenge, and, if necessary, chastise its students. As as alumnus of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, I can attest that SBTS does exactly what it needs to do.

At Southern, there are those students who seek to make Calvinists out of everyone (notice: not "disciples"). There are students that think "J.C." stands for John Calvin, not Jesus Christ. There are students that, basically, turn into Calvinisers, not ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In those cases, those students should be confronted, challenged, and chastised.

Dr. Moore is one who takes his responsibility to mold and shape men into ministers very seriously. His article is an important and necessary corrective to many students of Scripture, not only at SBTS.

The Archangel
 

mandym

New Member
An institution of higher learning is not about making its students feel comfortable and giving them the warm & fuzzies.

Quite the contrary, the institution should confront, challenge, and, if necessary, chastise its students. As as alumnus of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, I can attest that SBTS does exactly what it needs to do.

At Southern, there are those students who seek to make Calvinists out of everyone (notice: not "disciples"). There are students that think "J.C." stands for John Calvin, not Jesus Christ. There are students that, basically, turn into Calvinisers, not ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In those cases, those students should be confronted, challenged, and chastised.

Dr. Moore is one who takes his responsibility to mold and shape men into ministers very seriously. His article is an important and necessary corrective to many students of Scripture, not only at SBTS.

The Archangel

The way in which it is addressed is equally important. I know who Moore is and find this very disappointing as well as surprising. The comparison made to the D&D crowd is over the top, unnecessary and belittling.
 

12strings

Active Member
I don't always agree with Dr. Moore on every issue, but I think what he has written here is not meant to be belittling in any way. He is simply using an "over the top" example (D&D) and a bit of humor to warn us not to be like that. It's simply the use of an illustration like any preacher would use in a sermon to make a point. He is not saying everyone who debates Calvinism on either side is just like a D&D fanatic, he's simply making a plea similar to the one usually attributed to Augustine: "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."

Is the D&D illustration necessary. Maybe Not, but neither is ANY illustration in any sermon. Preachers could simply say: "Do not covet". But a few examples can really help the point sink in. Dr. Moore could have simply wrote a short twitter feed saying: Please be civil and respectful when discussing calvinism."

...but if he had...no one would notice it, and we wouldn't be discussing it now, would we?
 

12strings

Active Member
By they way, for an old example of Charity in the midst of strident disagreement, Please read this statement by John Wesley:

http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/arminian/

If it is too long, at least read the last Point (#12) on how we should relate to each other.

-Andy

DISCLAIMER: I am neither an arminian nor a weslyan. But John Wesley was a smart guy.
 

12strings

Active Member
On 2nd thought, here is the end of that article for those who don't like following links:

(note the first sentence...can you believe an arminian would say that? :)

John Calvin was a pious, learned, sensible man; and so was James Harmens. Many Calvinists are pious, learned, sensible men; and so are many Arminians. Only the former hold absolute predestination; the latter, conditional.

12. One word more: Is it not the duty of every Arminian Preacher, First, never, in public or in private, to use the word Calvinist as a term of reproach; seeing it is neither better nor worse than calling names? -- a practice no more consistent with good sense or good manners, than it is with Christianity. Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly of it? And is it not equally the duty of every Calvinist Preacher, First, never in public or in private, in preaching or in conversation, to use the word Arminian as a term of reproach? Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly thereof; and that the more earnestly and diligently, if they have been accustomed so to do? perhaps encouraged therein by his own example!
 
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