-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Scapegoat
- Thread starter Tiggy
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Tiggy said:
Most certainly.
Lev 16 is the chapter that defines the process of Atonement. It is the process to be followed on the "Day of Atonement".
Two goats are selected initially but when the Lord's goat is selected from between them (by casting lots) - then from that point on it is called "The sin offering" or "the goat of the sin offering".In fact once the Lord's goat is identified then you can just say "The Sin offering" and it is not ambiguous - it only applies to the Lord's goat not the Scape goat.
The Scape goat primarily represents Satan but also the wicked whose sins are not forgiven. Their punishment - their banishment is not an "Atoning sacrifice" it is not even considered to be a death at all - just banishment, when it comes to the subject of Atonement. The scape goat represents the disposition of sins that are not subject to the full payment of the blood of the Lord's Goat in the case of the wicked.
But in the case of Satan it represents Satan's own "Added guilt" in tempting the saints to sin - since it is known that the saints are members of God's kingdom and not Satan's.This goes back to the idea that for each sin there is in fact a level of "guilt" and "associated punishment" that can be assigned. And that will be paid by the wicked in the Lake of Fire.
In Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Tiggy said:
No. This can only happen after the High Priest leaves the Most Holy Place in the Day of Atonement model.
Christ is currently standing in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary for us - as the Day of Atonement model predicts He would do following the sacrifice of the Lord's goat - following His atoning Sacrifice on the Cross.
Not until that ministry of Christ in our behalf is done - and He is ready to return to Earth - will His work there end. Then and only then the entire Dan 7 Judgment process will have completed and all the saints vindicated (Judgment will then be passed in favor of the saints Dan 7:22) and Satan's guilt will then be "Fully known". For in addition to all the obvious guilt that Satan has at this point - is the added guilt of tempting the saints (once they are objectively defined and defended) to commit sin.
Once that happens Satan will be assigned his own "total load of guilt" and sent off into a lifeless place.
(As we found out - in Rev 19-20 -- this happens at the 2nd coming when the Earth is left desolate and Satan is bound in that empty place for 1000 years).
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Tiggy said:
Christ takes our sin away through his atoning sacrifice - modeled as the "Sin offering " in Lev 16. There is in fact only ONE sin offering in Lev 16 - and that is the Lord's Goat.
The Scape goat does not take your sins away - it only bears its OWN load of guilt - but not as a "substitutionary sacrifice" -- in fact it is not sacrificed at all. It is not even a "Sin offering".
In Christ,
Bob
dispen4ever
New Member
Tiggy, a scapegoat is one who unjustly takes the blame for someone else. If I, as president of my company, don't want to take the blame for falling revenues, I will blame my assistant and his staff, rather than reveal my own incompetent business sense.
If I don't want to take responsibility for, and be held accountable for my own sin, I will say something like "the devil made me do it." That's scapegoating.
If I don't want to take responsibility for, and be held accountable for my own sin, I will say something like "the devil made me do it." That's scapegoating.
Ok Bob why is it when the sacrifice of the lamb is done and the blood is spread over the goat wouldn't that mean that the sins are placed on the scapegoat and then allowed to go free never to come back like the way our sins are taken from us through Jesus Christ never to be remembered again as far as the east is from the west?
BobRyan said:
I don't understand what you mean that Christ is currently standing in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly sanctuary.....isn't He with God the Father? Is God the Father not with Christ? I thought Jesus said It is Finished when He died on the cross....what more work does He have to do? Don't you think that satan knows what he has done and knows where he is going and therefore is trying to get as many people as he can to go with him? Don;t you think satan fully knows now about what he has done? Don't the demons tremble at the name of Jesus and in doing so don't you think that they know who Jesus is and that what they have done would be the reason they tremble for they know what is going to become of them? Still trying to justify all of this so many questions and I am sorry but still confused about the whole thing
BobRyan said:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The Lev 16 model of atonement includes the role of Christ in heaven as High Priest for us. Nothing about that says that God the Father and God the Son are "not together" in heaven.
The big surprise for a lot of people is that Lev 16 is as real as Passover when it comes to predicting a future work of God the Son - Christ our Savior.
It begins with the sacrifice of the Lord's Goat - the "sin offering" but it continues with the work in the Most Holy Place. A work that is going on the "real tabernacle" which the Lord has built - not man.
1John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
John shows us that continued pardon for sin even AFTER being saved depends on Christ's role before God as our advocate - our representative - our high priest.
And Paul agrees.
1Tim 2:7
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Hebrews 4
...
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
Clearly Heb 5 shows us that the high priestly work of Christ is specific to His being the source of eternal salvation. Finding eternal salvation
from some other source after Christ's work as high priest ends - is not endorsed by Hebrews 5.
The big surprise for a lot of people is that Lev 16 is as real as Passover when it comes to predicting a future work of God the Son - Christ our Savior.
It begins with the sacrifice of the Lord's Goat - the "sin offering" but it continues with the work in the Most Holy Place. A work that is going on the "real tabernacle" which the Lord has built - not man.
1John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
John shows us that continued pardon for sin even AFTER being saved depends on Christ's role before God as our advocate - our representative - our high priest.
And Paul agrees.
1Tim 2:7
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Hebrews 4
...
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
Clearly Heb 5 shows us that the high priestly work of Christ is specific to His being the source of eternal salvation. Finding eternal salvation
from some other source after Christ's work as high priest ends - is not endorsed by Hebrews 5.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So often Christians are used to ignoring massive sections of scripture - and so these Gospel facts about what Christ did and CONTINUES to do for us get "ignored" in their teaching.
Here we find that the fact of the continuing high priestly work of Christ - His "intercession" is what guarantees the continued process of saving those who are choosing
to "draw near" to God through Him. This is the hope of the lost sinner. And it is clear from the text that His work is specific to intercession for the sins of the people.
Christ's work is again connected with the subject of sacrifices for sins - for the purpose of obtaining forgiveness as we see in vs 3 above. Christ is SHOWN to “NOW have” that ministry as our High priest for NOW He has taken His seat and NOW He is in the heavens a minister IN the TRUE tabernacle I heaven He has NOW obtained a more excellent ministry. But this is NOT a ministry He held on earth for “IF He were on EARTH He would NOT BE A PRIEST AT ALL”
This is the clear direct teaching of Hebrews. Impossible to miss.
The covenant that Christ is mediating - has everything to do with obtaining forgiveness of sins according to Hebrews 8 vs 12.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''
Heb 9.
6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
The way into the holy place - had not been available before the cross. The High Priestly work of of Christ in relationship to His blood and having it applied
to the record of sins and - then blotting out those sins from the books - all that work, was not taking place until the ministry in the heavenly sanctuary
started. Which was not in the pre-cross age.
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Here we see that it is not until Christ begins his role as priest - that He enters the heavenly sanctuary with His blood - for the purpose of dealing with sins, redemption
and salvation within the context of the heavenly sanctuary.
Here we find that the fact of the continuing high priestly work of Christ - His "intercession" is what guarantees the continued process of saving those who are choosing
to "draw near" to God through Him. This is the hope of the lost sinner. And it is clear from the text that His work is specific to intercession for the sins of the people.
Christ's work is again connected with the subject of sacrifices for sins - for the purpose of obtaining forgiveness as we see in vs 3 above. Christ is SHOWN to “NOW have” that ministry as our High priest for NOW He has taken His seat and NOW He is in the heavens a minister IN the TRUE tabernacle I heaven He has NOW obtained a more excellent ministry. But this is NOT a ministry He held on earth for “IF He were on EARTH He would NOT BE A PRIEST AT ALL”
This is the clear direct teaching of Hebrews. Impossible to miss.
The covenant that Christ is mediating - has everything to do with obtaining forgiveness of sins according to Hebrews 8 vs 12.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''
Heb 9.
6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
The way into the holy place - had not been available before the cross. The High Priestly work of of Christ in relationship to His blood and having it applied
to the record of sins and - then blotting out those sins from the books - all that work, was not taking place until the ministry in the heavenly sanctuary
started. Which was not in the pre-cross age.
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Here we see that it is not until Christ begins his role as priest - that He enters the heavenly sanctuary with His blood - for the purpose of dealing with sins, redemption
and salvation within the context of the heavenly sanctuary.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Tiggy said:
Agreed, they know they are evil and the univers knows they are evil. That is not the issue. The issue is this - each sin has its debt of torment and suffering that must be paid in the 2nd death - the lake of fire - the fire and brimstone torment. It is easy to summ all the evil deeds of the demons and simply say "now pay for that". But there is one thing that is not known until the saints of God are determined objectively.
Notice that in Job 1 and 2 the argument is made by God that Job is one of HIS people -- Satan argues that Job is NOT that Job simply operates out of selfish motives - as would anyone in Satan's kingdom.
So a test is done to SEE who is right.
In Dan 7 you see the same thing on a much larger scale -- there we see judgment in heaven (an event that happens some time after the rise and fall of the Roman empire according to the chapter). That chapter tells us that eventually "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 and when that happens all persecution of all saints on the entire planet ends - and the kingdom is turned over to the saints (Dan 7:22-27).
When the "accuser of the bretheren" has all of his accusations unmasked against all of the saints such that the case of each one is revealed for what it is then -- and only then "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints". It is then that Satan can be charged with the ADDITIONAL crime of tempting those who are NOT part of his kingdom.
That objective corporate judgment is part of the essential work of "Atonement" even the Jews recognize that the "Day of Atonement" was a day of judgment of the entire world.
Rev 14:6-8 predicts a future time -- future to John's day when "The Hour of His judgment would come" a time when the Gospel was till going out to those who live on the whole world.
Anyway - long subject - but the Bible is not the simple bedtime story that many have been lead to believe.
In Christ,
Bob
dispen4ever
New Member
Wow, Bob. Simple question, you overload with complex answers. Relax. Wouldn't it suffice to say that Jesus Christ, the innocent one, took upon himself the judgment for our sin/sins, becoming the scapegoat? He got all the blame, all the condemnation, all the punishment for us. We were/are guilty, he paid the price. Hooray for Jesus, our scapegoat. :jesus:
Tiggy, the scapegoat does not represent satan.
Tiggy, the scapegoat does not represent satan.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
dispen4ever said:
Agreed. I consider the scapegoat to be a precursor image of Christ.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
dispen4ever said:
That would be wrong.
But if you say "Jesus the innocent one took upon himself the judgment for our sins becoming the SIN OFFERING - the LORD's Goat - the ATONING sacrifice - suffering and dying IN OUR place" then you would be correct.
The scapegoat is not killed.
The scapegoat is not a sin offering
The scapegoat contributes NO blood offering to anything!
The scapegoat's part comes only AFTER the lamb of God (the Lord's Goat - the Sin offering) is slain - and ITs blood applied to the sanctury.
The scapegoat represents Satan - who provides NO sin offering and is NOT slain in our behald and offers NO blood offering in our place.
It is as simple and obvious as that!
Christ is called the "Lamb of God" and Christ is called our "High Priest" but Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat".
In Christ,
Bob