Scapegoat

[Eliyahu]

So you are saying that "Jehovah's goat" is paying for sin - and then the scapegoat goes out into a desolate unpopulated area outside the camp to "testify"???

Where does scripture suggest that the scapegoat is giving a testimony? Where is such a "testimony in the desert" ever a part of "substitutionary atonement" paying the debt "that we owe"?? Were WE supposed to go to the desert and "testify" and yet didn't so now Christ does that for us - in our behalf?

In Christ,


Bob

Did you expect the goat to preach the gospel to the human beings? or to the fellow goats ?:laugh:
What God could do with goats was to symbolically demonstrate what Jesus Christ would do at the Cross.
Do you know the Hebrew name of Numbers ( Bible book) ? It is Bemidbar which means Wilderness. After the salvation from Egypt, the Israelites had to spend time in the wilderness before they enter the Canaan where the milk and honey flow. The world is a wilderness to the believers and the Scapegoat didn't have to bleed and die again as the other goat-Jehovah's goat. If our sins could be laid upon the shoulder of Satan, Why did God kill His beloved Son, the precious, sinless person? Lev 16:21 tells us that the iniquities and transgressions of Israel were laid upon the Scapegoat. If Satan can carry away our sins, why should Jesus be killed at the Cross? Why did Jesus have to suffer from the most painful death at the Cross ? He suffered the extreme humiliation and reproach by being hung on the tree, the sinless, precious, person was hung on the tree ! That was just for you and me, and for all the people in the world ( 1 John 2:2)
Because we are so sinful, He died in our stead. He was humiliated to set us free, He suffered the pains and death to make us kings and priests in Him.

Scapegoat and Jehovah's goat functioned as symbols of Jesus Christ, showingt the different aspects of Jesus, one showing the blood and death at the Cross, the other victory over the sins and death, preaching the gospel to the wilderness of this world, by going away to the wilderness as the woman in Rev 12 fled to the wilderness under the protection of God.
One goat couldn't explain 2 different aspects of Jesus and therefore God showed them thru 2 goats.
Hope Bob Ryan change his mind on this as he has been very much smart in understanding many parts of Bible truth so far. Bob, you must know I liked you in many doctrinal issues and debates, and do love your soul very much, but please remember that Jesus paid all the price for our sins, even including our future sins Once For All at the Cross.
Eliyahu in Jesus

 

[BobRyan]

The Scapegoat functioned as a symbol of Satan --

The LORD's Goat - the SIN OFFERING -- actually takes away sin for it represents the "LAMB of GOD that takes away the sin of the world" - it takes a SIN OFFERING to do that.

So as Heb 9 says "Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin" there was NO FORGIVENESS in what the Scapegoat does -- it is NOT a sin offering - it is NOT a type of Christ.

Only the SIN OFFERING and the High Priest are EVER mentioned in the NT as being a type of Christ.

Period.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Lev 4 and Lev 16 it is very clear what a sin offering is -- and how atonement works.

In Lev 16 the Atonement based on blood - (without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" according to Heb 9) -- is complete by the time the scapegoat is brought into use.

Lev 16
19 "" With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and from the impurities of the sons of Israel consecrate it.[/b]
20 ""When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. [/quote]

Notice that the blood of the “Sin Offering” is sprinkled on all that is to be “atoned for” – including the sins of the people. It is not until the atonement in the sanctuary is complete that the part of the scapegoat begins.



The scapegoat is never sacrificed and never called “The sin offering” once the scapegoat has been “identified”. It plays a part in the final disposition of sin – but not as “a sin offering”.

In Lev 4 the way atonement, forgiveness and the Sin offering work together is explicitly -- "spelled out" in the "Law of the Sin offering".

Lev 4
13 'Now if the whole congregation of Israel commits error and the matter escapes the notice of the assembly, and they commit any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, and they become guilty;
14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a bull of the herd for a sin offering and bring it before the tent of meeting.
15 'Then the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be slain before the LORD.
16 'Then the anointed priest is to bring some of the blood of the bull to the tent of meeting;
17 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, in front of the veil.
18 'He shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar which is before the LORD in the tent of meeting; and all the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering which is at the doorway of the tent of meeting.
19 'He shall remove all its fat from it and offer it up in smoke on the altar.
20 'He shall also do with the bull just as he did with the bull of the sin offering; thus he shall do with it So the priest shall make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.
21 'Then he is to bring out the bull to a place outside the camp and burn it as he burned the first bull; it is the sin offering for the assembly.


22 'When a leader sins and unintentionally does any one of all the things which the LORD his God has commanded not to be done, and he becomes guilty,
23 if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a male without defect.
24 'He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
25 'Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
26 'All its fat he shall offer up in smoke on the altar as in the case of the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin, and he will be forgiven.

The scapegoat is NOT sacrificed at all. It plays no part at all in the atonement made for the sanctuary and altar - which represents the accumulated sins of all the people for the entire ceremonial year.

Remember "Without the shedding of blood there IS no forgiveness of sins". The reason as God points out in Lev 17:11 "It is the BLOOD that makes atonement".

Search - the NT and OT - never is Christ identified with the Scapegoat.

BUT if you ever WERE to try to make that assignment it would be in Heb 13:11-12 where Paul wants to make the point that we should be willing to "Go outside the camp" for Christ sufferred outside the camp. There if no other place is the PERFECT spot to argue for identification between Christ and the scapegoat. Yet it is THERE that Paul argues Christ outside the camp in the form of the "flesh that is burned outside the camp" INSTEAD of arguing "the scapegoat is RELEASED outside the camp". And that means an explicit reference "once again" to the SIN offering instead of the scapegoat!

I have summarized it in my own notes this way

In Heb 13 Paul addresses the issue of Christ outside the camp and of our desire to go out and join Him. But instead of using the case of the scapegoat “released outside the camp” Paul deliberately uses the case of the sin offering BURNED outside the camp. So here – in the one place that the NT MIGHT have selected to identify Christ with the “scapegoat” it consistently chooses instead to identify Christ with the “sin offering”. How consistent. How instructive for those who are willing to listen.




Heb 13
10We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.

11For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp.

12Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

13So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.

 

[Eliyahu]

I understand how you reached such logic.

Mose lifted up a serpent of Brass ( Numbers 21:9-) Jesus said he would be lifted up ( Jn 3). Then did Jesus become the Satan ?

Jesus after resurrection didn't shed any blood, and therefore was He Satan?

Your logic may apply very well to Red Heifer in Numbers 19:2 which was killed and burnt outside the camp as Hebrew 13:11-13 but even in that case, the water from the ash was continuously used for the purification. The water from the ash was the another aspect of the Red Heifer which was the shadow of Jesus Christ, or Symbol of Jesus Christ.

At the Cross, Jesus crucified the Satan and the Death. Did He become Satan ?
You must distinguish between the function and the truth, and the person Himself.
Jehovah's goat couldn't represent all the aspect of Jesus, especially the resurrected Jesus and that was done by the Scapegoat!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

See Jesus in the Law and see the law in Jesus; or fail to see any.

Quoting BR, to illustrate:
"Remember "Without the shedding of blood there IS no forgiveness of sins". The reason as God points out in Lev 17:11 "It is the BLOOD that makes atonement".

This speaks of the OT sacrifices, and even then, the blood of those sacrifices was unable to really 'atone' - it 'atoned' only in so far as it pointed to Christ and was executed in the faith of the coming Messiah.

Now BR refers to, "Without the shedding of blood there IS no forgiveness of sins" without taking into account any context. Even the blood of Jesus, had He not been raised from the dead, would bring no forgiveness of sins; Paul says, we would be in our sins still!
True, eternal, Divine forgiveness only comes about by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. To this truth OT sacrifices AND 'offerings', pointed and witnessed of. The blood of the sacrifices in itself could not 'illustrate' life after death, forgiveness or righteousness - therefore broadly there was that dual aspect of the OT 'sacrificial' system of blood as well as of life, being 'offered', "BEFORE, the Lord". To enter into the presence of the Holy God, one needed such 'atonement' as only the risen Christ could avail. It only by the blood AND resurrection of Christ became possible. Hebrews 4:8 and 10 both carry over this meaning -- in the context of the Sabbath "God thus concerning did speak". (From which correllation I deduce that Jesus must have risen from the dead on the Sabbath Day - an inescapable conclusion BobRyan scoffs at.)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The scapegoat in its very entering into the wilderness of its own freedom, foreshadowed the Christ who through and in His resurrection entered into the glory of the Father, the full fellowship and the perfect interrelationship of the Trinity. The goat for Yahwe alone as that symbol of the blood of Christ, could not bring about 'final atonement; it had to be supplemented by the scapegoat as the symbol of Christ's Life.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting BR:
"Search - the NT and OT - never is Christ identified with the Scapegoat."

GE:
Why? Are you blind? All the New Testament tells you Christ "revived" and "went forth", Conqueror, Triumphator, Everlasting God, the Prince of Peace. In His very rising from the dead as the Great Propitiator covering all the sins of all the forgiven with and in His glory and dignity, Christ appeased and pleased God in His hour of judgement; and they that once were enemies, were accounted just and brought nigh before Him -- through the Son and in the Son and unto the glory of His Name.

 

[Claudia_T]

On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims.

Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scapegoat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat. The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people.

...the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed.
The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners.

The High Priest AND the Scapegoat cannot represent the same Being.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting CT:
"The High Priest AND the Scapegoat cannot represent the same Being."

Why not? Everything of the OT sacrificial 'system' 'represented the same Being' of Jesus Christ. the temple, its entrance, its holy place, its most holy place, its altar, its veil; its priests, its high priests, it offers in terms of sacrifices each and every one of them; its offerings in terms of non-blood 'gifts', even its live animals and symbols - everything! NOTHING ever represented satan; now you come and say the last atoning 'symbol' of the whole year's, is the devil? To devil with such blaphemy!

 

[Claudia_T]

Quoting CT:
"The High Priest AND the Scapegoat cannot represent the same Being."



Why not? Everything of the OT sacrificial 'system' 'represented the same Being' of Jesus Christ. the temple, its entrance, its holy place, its most holy place, its altar, its veil; its priests, its high priests, it offers in terms of sacrifices each and every one of them; its offerings in terms of non-blood 'gifts', even its live animals and symbols - everything! NOTHING ever represented satan; now you come and say the last atoning 'symbol' of the whole year's, is the devil? To devil with such blaphemy!

nothing whatsoever to do with atonement, I dont remember saying that.

 

[Eliyahu]

Now BR refers to, "Without the shedding of blood there IS no forgiveness of sins" without taking into account any context. Even the blood of Jesus, had he not been raised from the dead, would bring no forgiveness of sins; Paul says, we would be in our sins still!

It's a good point!
The Resurrection proved Jesus was righteous and innocent and gives us the hope that we will have the same resurrection.
It is another part of Jesus Ministry.

 

[Eliyahu]

There are hundreds of Non-Blood symbols of Jesus Christ in OT.
Golden Candle stick, Acacia boards, Curtains ( Vail), Silver bases, gate of the Tabernacle, Tent of Ram Skins, Redemption money, etc.
Those symbols didn't shed the blood, but they represent Jesus Christ apparently.

 

[Claudia_T]

Lev:16:22: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


These happenings that have to do with the end of Satan are what the verses in Leviticus and the scapegoat are referring to, it does not represent Jesus or the atonement:

Rv:20:
1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Isa:14:
3: And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4: That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5: The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6: He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7: The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8: Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9: Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10: All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11: Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13: For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15: Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16: They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms

Ezekiel 28:
6: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7: Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8: They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9: Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10: Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11: Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12: Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13: Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14: Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15: Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16: By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18: Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19: All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Claudia_T]

NOTE:

the quote above from Revelation refers to the time when Satan as the scapegoat will wander in the wilderness and then the quotes from Isaiah and Ezekiel refer to the time when Satan will finally be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. He has the sins ultimately put upon him not as an atoning sacrifice but because ultimately he is responsible for having tempted and deceived all who have sinned.

and he is finally destroyed because of it, in the Lake of Fire.... he along with the wicked angels who too have deceived sinners.

 

[Eliyahu]

Lev:16:22: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
.

Do we lay hands on the Satan to confess our sins?

Does Satan carry away our sins?


Then why did God allow His Son to be killed?
Why didn't He spare His Son and let Satan die instead?

 

[Claudia_T]

Do we lay hands on the Satan to confess our sins?

Does Satan carry away our sins?


Then why did God allow His Son to be killed?
Why didn't He spare His Son and let Satan die instead?

you arent understanding the concept of RESPONSIBILITY for sin... not atonement for sin.

It is an atonement in a certain sense of the word but look, the scapegoat goes away ALIVE into the wilderness...ultimately every sin is the RESPONSIBILITY of Satan because he is the one who caused people to be tempted...


Leviticus 16:
7: And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8: And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9: And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10: But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

the scapegoat is NOT sacrificed, as you will notice. he goes away ALIVE... now LATER Satan will ultimately be burned in the lake of fire because HE is responsible for all sin. This is what it is representing here.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If satan carried the sins of the wicked, then justice demands they should be pardoned and set free from damnation. They are not because the only Sinbearer, Jesus, did not bear their sins. Satan does not take into oblivion the sins of any, lost or saved; Jesus took the sins of those forgiven their sins upon Himself and does not offload it upon anyone else.

But we all know, talking with an Adventist is like talking to a mule; they have the light and nobody else. Never have I seen a SDA change his mind or doctrine. They are Laodicea, they claim themselves.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote:
"...the scapegoat is NOT sacrificed, as you will notice. he goes away ALIVE".

Yes, 'Yahweh's goat' could not because it was killed - mortal symbolism can only go so far and not further. Jesus went into the 'wilderness' and reached the land of Promise, 'ALIVE', "presenting" Himself before the throne an "Offering" and "Atonement" for sins, "once for all", "according to the law of indestructable LIFE", "WHILE God raised Him from the dead, WHILE He set Him at His own right hand, in highest of heavenly dominion, and EXALTED him, FAR ABOVE all rule and authority ..." (egeiras auton ek nekrohn kai kathisas en deksiai autou en tois EP-ouranois huperanoh pasehs archehes kai eksousias ...).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
"BUT if you ever WERE to try to make that assignment it would be in Heb 13:11-12 where Paul wants to make the point that we should be willing to "Go outside the camp" for Christ sufferred outside the camp. There if no other place is the PERFECT spot to argue for identification between Christ and the scapegoat. Yet it is THERE that Paul argues Christ outside the camp in the form of the "flesh that is burned outside the camp" INSTEAD of arguing "the scapegoat is RELEASED outside the camp". And that means an explicit reference "once again" to the SIN offering instead of the scapegoat!"

The fact a sacrifice was burned outside the camp does not make it a 'burnt offering' All 'remains' of sacrifices (not eaten by the priests) were burned outside the city. Flour could be offerred a burnt offering, inside the temple, etc. A "burnt offering" was one type of 'sacrifice' animal or non animal, blood or no blood.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CT:
"ultimately every sin is the RESPONSIBILITY of Satan..."

GE: Then God ultimately punished the wrong party when He punished the wicked for their wickedness!