Scapegoat

[Radidio]

And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin-offering,


ONLY ONE - is said to be "The SIN offering" --

V.15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin-offering that is for the people

ONLY participates as "the sin offering" - and its blood is shed "as a sin offering" as a substitutionary atoning sacrifice "for the people"

The second goat is a sin offering also and is the figurative atonement of sins for the people present, the same way the sins were put on the head of the goat is represented in the sins of the world being put on the head of CHrist. Then the goat is sent away to the desert the same as our sins are sent far from us as the east is from the west.

and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, individually and collectively, and all their transgressions in all their sins, all the misdeeds and trespasses which brought upon them the wrath of Jehovah, putting them upon the head of the goat, the “remover of sins,”

 

[BobRyan]

The second goat is a sin offering also...

That simply does not hold up. In Lev 16 the Lord's Goat is called "THE goat of THE sin offering" -- it is THE ONE AND ONLY Goat called "THE Goat of THE sin offering" - in Lev 16.

V.15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin-offering that is for the people

Furthermore Lev is very explicit that only the BURNT offering - ONLY offerings where blood is shed -- only a SACRIFICE -- can be a "Sin offering".

NEVER does Lev 16 say that the "Scapegoat is sacrificed".

NEVER does Lev 16 that the Scapegoat "is THE sin offering".

These facts are impossible to controvert.

They are beyond dispute.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The second goat is a sin offering also and is the figurative atonement of sins for the people present, the same way the sins were put on the head of the goat is represented in the sins of the world being put on the head of CHrist. Then the goat is sent away to the desert the same as our sins are sent far from us as the east is from the west.

and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, individually and collectively, and all their transgressions in all their sins, all the misdeeds and trespasses which brought upon them the wrath of Jehovah, putting them upon the head of the goat, the “remover of sins,”

GE:
Thank you, Radidio! It's so simple.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

That simply does not hold up. In Lev 16 the Lord's Goat is called "THE goat of THE sin offering" -- it is THE ONE AND ONLY Goat called "THE Goat of THE sin offering" - in Lev 16.

V.15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin-offering that is for the people

Furthermore Lev is very explicit that only the BURNT offering - ONLY offerings where blood is shed -- only a SACRIFICE -- can be a "Sin offering".

NEVER does Lev 16 say that the "Scapegoat is sacrificed".

NEVER does Lev 16 that the Scapegoat "is THE sin offering".

These facts are impossible to controvert.

They are beyond dispute.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:

Who disputed? Who questioned 'these facts'? It's you, where YOU, allege, "Furthermore Lev is very explicit that only the BURNT offering - ONLY offerings where blood is shed -- only a SACRIFICE -- can be a "Sin offering"."

This is your error, to say that "only a SACRIFICE -- can be a "Sin offering"."

It's the same as saying the blood of animals in fact and ultimately atone for sins.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It's the LIFE of the Sacrifice that in fact and ultimately atones for sins; and since no animal had innate indestructable life it's blood was its life and the end of its life. Only the Lamb of God had innate indestructable LIFE, and therefore sins are in fact and ultimately atoned by the sacrice AND LIFE of HIM. The live goat illustrates this 'life-factor' only found in Christ. --- as good as any type could of course, which is in part only -- a very samll psrt, incomparably small indeed.

 

[Radidio]

That simply does not hold up. In Lev 16 the Lord's Goat is called "THE goat of THE sin offering" -- it is THE ONE AND ONLY Goat called "THE Goat of THE sin offering" - in Lev 16.

V.15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin-offering that is for the people

Furthermore Lev is very explicit that only the BURNT offering - ONLY offerings where blood is shed -- only a SACRIFICE -- can be a "Sin offering".

NEVER does Lev 16 say that the "Scapegoat is sacrificed".

NEVER does Lev 16 that the Scapegoat "is THE sin offering".

These facts are impossible to controvert.

They are beyond dispute.

In Christ,

Bob

Read it again with my explanations and you will see I'm correct even without my explantions and just the verses quoted:
V.20. And when he hath made an end of reconciling the Holy Place and the Tabernacle of the Congregation and the altar, he shall bring the live goat, the second animal of the sin- offering. V.21. And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, not only one, as in the ordinary sacrifices, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, individually and collectively, and all their transgressions in all their sins, all the misdeeds and trespasses which brought upon them the wrath of Jehovah, putting them upon the head of the goat, the “remover of sins,” and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man in to the wilderness, one who stood ready to go in an instant, without loss of time; v.22. and the go at shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited, into a desert and desolate place, for complete removal; and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Thus the fourth part of the special ceremonies of the day was brought to a close

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with the details of those verses - they do not claim that the scapegoat is "sacrificed" and they do not call the Scapegoat "The sin offering" and they do not call it "a burnt offering".

in fact God is very specific to point out that the scapegoat is NOT sacrificed - it is simply "set free" into the same wilderness where Israel lives.

Only a burnt offering can be a "sin offering" according to Lev.

Only a blood sacrifice can be a "sin offering" according to Lev

The "LIFE is in the blood - therefore I have given you the blood to make atonement" God said in Lev 17.

This means that the only thing to be "answered" is not "HOw can we make the Scapegoat a sin offering ANYWAY --" but rather "What is the meaning of placing some symbol of sins on an animal that is specifically NOT a sin offering - NOT a blood sacrifice - NOT an substitutionary payment"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ALL sacrificed blood and burnt offerings were in vain without faith; they never really atoned for sin since their life was in their blood - useless after death. But the LIFE of Christ was in His blood - He rose again, and through His LIFE, was able to make true atonement. You cannot apply to the animal sacrifices the attributes of Jesus' sacrifice - it's idolatry, like the heathen do.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
"What is the meaning of placing some symbol of sins on an animal that is specifically NOT a sin offering - NOT a blood sacrifice - NOT an substitutionary payment"?

The meaning is typical -- it foreshadows Christ not only in His capacity of Sacrifice, but also in His capacity of "Offering before the LORD", which could only have been in His capacity of the Risen One. This answers how the Scapegoat must be seen as a sin offering ANYWAY, sacrificed or not sacrificed. Or raher, no, it cannot be seen as a sin offering if sacrificed, for it showed Christ in resurrected LIFE!

 

[BobRyan]

"No sacrifice" and "NOT a sacrifice" (as in the Scapegoat NEVER called a Sacrifice in ALL of scripture) is NOT a way to "foreshadow SACRIFICE" as you have stated.

Never was - never will be.

1. Christ is NEVER called "our Scapegoat" NO not in ALL of scripture. But Christ IS called the "LAMB of God" and "our High Priest" from Lev 16.

2. There can be NO Gospel promise of subtitutionary payment - substitutionary death and sacrifice WITHOUT a death and sacrifice!! Never could have been - never will be -- and no such claim for a thing in all of scripture.

3. The Bible in Lev 16 USES the "unambiguous reference" of the term "SIN OFFERING" to the Lord's Goat -- something that CAN ONLY be unambiguous IF the Scapegoat is NOT ALSO called the "SIN OFFERING" -- and so Lev 16 shows by that reference CLEARLY that the Scapegoat is not A SINOFFERING or ONE of TWO sin offerings -- it is NOT the sin offering. Period.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ag ja, just another dead end street ... like with every discussion with a SDA.

 

[BobRyan]

"No sacrifice" and "NOT a sacrifice" (as in the Scapegoat NEVER called a Sacrifice in ALL of scripture) is NOT a way to "foreshadow SACRIFICE" as you have stated.

Never was - never will be.

1. Christ is NEVER called "our Scapegoat" NO not in ALL of scripture. But Christ IS called the "LAMB of God" and "our High Priest" from Lev 16.

2. There can be NO Gospel promise of subtitutionary payment - substitutionary death and sacrifice WITHOUT a death and sacrifice!! Never could have been - never will be -- and no such claim for a thing in all of scripture.

3. The Bible in Lev 16 USES the "unambiguous reference" of the term "SIN OFFERING" to the Lord's Goat -- something that CAN ONLY be unambiguous IF the Scapegoat is NOT ALSO called the "SIN OFFERING" -- and so Lev 16 shows by that reference CLEARLY that the Scapegoat is not A SIN OFFERING nor ONE of TWO sin offerings -- it is NOT the sin offering. Period.