SCAREY!

Brethren,

This past summer I was invited to fulfill an appointment in a Baptist church where I preached from the text found in 1 Cor. 15.12-19.

Afterward I learned this body was seeking a pastor; a deacon informed me (later by phone) they decided not to call me because I seemed to be closed minded (concerning other "faiths").

I do not care that they did not call me to pastor, I perceive it would have been short lived anyway, and these things are ultimately determined by our Lord.

However, it did and still does bother me this seems to be the prevailing sentiments in churches today.

How plain can it be put: "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." 1 Cor. 15.14 & 15.

"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." James 3.17

God Bless,
Bro. Dallas

[ October 07, 2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

Stay strong in the Lord Bro. Dallas. It's not going to get any easier in these last times, but I thank God for preachers who are staying faithful to the Gospel. God bless you.

 

Phillip: Your diatribe makes my point of what is happening in our churches today. Sorry, about the tough language, but I am not going to allow for the message of Jesus Christ to be watered down.

Norm: Diatribe? Goodness, was what I stated of a polemical nature?

Phillip: [1] I am sorry, but Paul did not respect other religions, I don't think I will either. The ONLY reason I would have to study another religion would simply be to better understand where the lost person went wrong to help them turn to Christ, but Jihad is an Islamic concept, not a Christian concept--[2] as you seem to be stating. I don't think many true Christians would "fight" and not "love" another person because they have a different religion, [3] but Christians have no business promoting comparisons between Islam and the REAL Christ Jesus!

Norm: [1] Can you not respect the fact that people find meaning from the teachings of their chosen faith? If you wish for the other to take you seriously, do you think it behooves you to take them seriously, too? [2] Partly, it seems to me, you are conversing with me and partly with yourself. I don't recall mentioning jihad, but I did use the word violence. Seems to me Christians have had their violent moments, too, and some, it appears, can't wait for a few more with Irag. [3] There are no truth claims whatsoever with the Islamic faith? No common ground can be found in which to begin conversation? And one's concern is the conversion of the Muslim? On what basis would they perceive one gives half a hoot once the 'talkin' begins, assuming it would, given a lack of respect for what the other holds as important is likely to be communicated by one's behaviors.

Phillip: Even your use of the word "fantasy" makes a mockery of our Testament of Jesus Christ, THE Son of God. If you are a Christian, I will love you as a brother, but I cannot accept your remarks. . . Sorry. . .

Norm: In my best DeNiro voice, "you talkin' to me?" Hey, Phillip, I am not the one that used the word fantasy; that was Mark O.

 

Norm, are you saying we can fellowship with Muslims, Hindus, Budhists, etc....

 

RomOne16: The concept of Christians finding common ground with other religions for the sake of "peace" is not of God.

Norm: OK on John 14.6. One might wish to rethink how Matthew 10:32ff is interpreted. One can be open to the other and still proclaim unashamedly one's faith in Christ. If the message is offensive, well, that is one thing (but if presented respectfully and at an opportune time, it typically will not be received as an afront to one's sensibilities, even if the validity of the message is denied), but, must we be personally offensive in sharing our beliefs? Did not Jesus tell us that peacemakers find happiness in working for peace? Did he not also instruct us to love others as we love ourselves?

 

Is there a difference between "love" and "fellowship" ?

 

Bro. Curtis: Norm, are you saying we can fellowship with Muslims, Hindus, Budhists, etc...

Norm: Yes. It behooves us to see the other as the other sees him- or herself. Hopefully the same respect will be afforded us by the other. Jesus placed a tremendous emphasis on the other, not only the Jew, but the gentile, as well. Whom did Jesus associate? Those of acceptance in the religious circles of his faith? Well, yes, but did he confine himself to such? Of course not, assuming we place validity in the gospel accounts of his 'heretical' activities. Jesus did not forfiet his Jewishness to be for the other, nor must we forfiet our Christianess to be for the other, likewise. In fact, one might suggest that an essence of our Christian faith is our openness to the other for the other's sake for the sake of God.

 

Seems dangerously ecumenical to me. I beleive we are commanded to avoid fellowship with error...

Romans 16:17&18
1Thessalonians 5:21
Jude 3
2Timothy 2:14-18, 3:5
2Corinthians 6:14-18
Revelation 2:2

By your logic, satanists and wiccans are our brothers and sisters. Any religion goes. That's not what Christ said.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Mt 10:34

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." Luke 12:51

"And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them." Luke 9:5

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32

Are you a candadate for the "One World Church" we hear about in Revelation ?

I am in vehement disagreement with you, Norm. Not me. I will not call unregenerate heathens my brothers. I will not call anybody who denies Christ's deity, or supreme sacrifice, my brothers. I do not want to see through their eyes. I am not interested in their doctrines. It has nothing to do with love. I love them, I weep tears for their eternities, and I pray for them, but I refuse to fellowship with them, as I am told not to.

[ October 08, 2002, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

Bro. Curtis: Seems dangerously ecumenical to me. I beleive we are commanded to avoid fellowship with error...

Norm: Ecumenical, yes; that is not a problem with me. Goodness, error. Seems to me that among those that cannot fellowship with one another these days are fellow Baptists! I guess the Muslim would, indeed, be out.

Bro. Curtis: By your logic, satanists and wiccans are our brothers and sisters. Any religion goes. That's not what Christ said.

Norm: I gave little attention to 'etc.,' however, I must confess, it did cross my mind that you might come back with Satanists. I chose to concentrate on the major faith groups and not deal with obvious outliers like Satanists, which I would not consider a faith group, at least not in the same sense of the groups you specifically mentioned. It is my understanding that Wiccans are basically pantheists, of which one might in some Christian theologies notice such tendency. But, again, my statements concerned the rule not the exceptions you wish to assert to refute the rule.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Mt 10:34. "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." Luke 12:51. "And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them." Luke 9:5. "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32.

Norm: As I responded earlier to another, is it your desire to convert the other? Do you suppose you will have much success by creating dissention between he or she and yourself? Do you suppose it will further the gospel by being personally offensive to the other? After an unsuccessful attempt to convert the Muslim, are you going to dust your feet after leaving his house? Is that helpful, especially as it is noticed by other Muslims? And you wish to demonstrate love for the Muslim by having total disregard for what he finds meaningful?

Bro. Curtis: Are you a candadate for the "One World Church" we hear about in Revelation ?

Norm: I am not naive that I would assert that a single church is going to capture the plurality of religious convictions. I do not advocate syncretism, however, I do not deny that other religions are capable of helping us understand our own more deeply, and thus we may also benefit from insights of other faiths.

Bro. Curtis: I am in vehement disagreement with you, Norm. Not me. I will not call unregenerate heathens my brothers. I will not call anybody who denies Chris's deity, or supreme sacrifice, my brothers. I do not want to see through their eyes. I am not interested in their doctrines. It has nothing to do with love. I love them, I weep tears for their eternities, and I pray for them, but I refuse to fellowship with them, as I am told not to.

Norm: That you cannot is not a disqualifier, but it does present you with a challenge. As many pastors will share with you, they feel the same way about some of their church members, but they minister to them in Christian love, nonetheless. However, if you are not interested in their doctrines or what is important to them, you will likely also exhibit behaviors that will not endear you to them, and you will likely compromise or nullify your Christian witness to these people. It is not difficult to love that which is similar, but to truly love the dissimilar, well, that takes a degree of maturity that some are incapable.

 

Christianity IS offensive to heathens.

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." John 15:18

It is not my job to convert. It is my job to evangelize.

You didn't address the verses I put up.

Am I to take your word over Christ's ? Am I to consider how people will feel over Biblical commands ?

No thanx.

[ October 08, 2002, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

RomOne16: If what the Muslim "finds meaningful" is a false religion , then as Christians we absolutely should have total disregard for it. I am all for Christians becoming familiar with other faiths, but only for the purpose of being more prepared to point out the errors in those faiths.

Norm: Read more closely, RomOne16. You need not abandon your faith to appreciate the faith of another and its influence on him or her. If you cannot take seriously what the other takes seriously, then you are basically not taking seriously the other. Hardly a basis for developing a relationship? Seriously, you think?

Norm: I am not naive that I would assert that a single church is going to capture the plurality of religious convictions.

RoMOne16: By this statement, are you saying that you don't believe that the book of Revelation predicts a "One World Church"?

Norm: I don't read Revelation in a manner that 'this is that' as some do, and have quite a following, I am told.

Norm: I do not advocate syncretism, however, I do not deny that other religions are capable of helping us understand our own more deeply, and thus we may also benefit from insights of other faiths.

RomOne16: What can other faiths possibly offer Christians to "help us understand our own faith more deeply", that Gods word lacks? I believe that everything that God has for His people to understand is in His word, and you are treading on dangerous ground if you are looking to false religions for a deeper understanding of your faith.

Norm: That you will never know until you study other faiths and how their traditions are practiced. You might consider that the other could ask you the same question. If you demonstrate no regard for that which the other embraces as important, your effectiveness with the other, well, stay at home and please don't make things worse for those who try and develop meaningful relationships.

 

Bro. Curtis: Christianity IS offensive to heathens.

Norm: Typically it is the Christian that is offensive. Typically when one perceives the other as having a genuine interest in self, reception of a controversial message presented in a respecful manner is not problematic.

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." John 15:18

Norm: Well, then, by all means do something that will cause some hate among Muslims, etc. if that is your ticket. However, if you wish to create hate, as Jesus likely had in mind, simply do acts of kindness and justice and walk humbly with your God. See how long it will take you to raise the ire of many, including perhaps among some of the religious of your faith group. And perhaps along the way, you might find some comforting company with Muslims who are doing the same.

Bro. Curtis: It is not my job to convert. It is my job to evangelize.

Norm: Granted. But keep in mind that evangelize does not equate with offenselize.

Bro. Curtis: You didn't address the verses I put up.

Norm; Yes, I noticed several. Is there something you wish to say about them?

Bro. Curtis: Am I to take your word over Christ's ? Am I to consider how people will feel over Biblical commands ? No thanx.

Norm: You have two issues here. 1) No, however, given that my comments may reflect a reasonable interpretation of the overall message of scripture, they might be considered. 2) What an uncaring thing to assert. Yes, you are your brother's keeper. Scripture does not invite us to live our lives in disregard for the other.

 

Norm, once you have established a "meaningful relationship" with an unbeliever, do you continue with that realtionship if they reject Christ? If so, then how do you address the following scripture?

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." 17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."

And as far as your suggestion that I "stay at home", I think that I will obey God rather than man Matt. 28:19 .

 

RomOne16: Norm, once you have established a "meaningful relationship" with an unbeliever, do you continue with that realtionship if they reject Christ? If so, then how do you address the following scripture? 14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." 17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."

Norm: The person needs to accept Christ on your timetable? If they say' no' today, does that necessarily assume it will be 'no' next week? Perhaps it will be 'no' until he or she dies. Would you desire to leave this meaningful relationship? Would that be Christian? Was a meaningful relationship ever developed, one might ask? Suppose one has a child of, say, 25 and that said child says, "you know, Dad, I just don't see it, I appreciate the fact that you find meaning in Christ, but it makes no sense to me. No thanks." Will you abandon a meaningful relationship with your child? Would God have you abandon an established relationship with one of his children, either your son or your friend?

RomOne16: And as far as your suggestion that I "stay at home", I think that I will obey God rather than man Matt. 28:19

Norm: I appreciate your zeal, however, you might consider the potential harm you might cause with your insights, attitudes, and behaviors.

 

Norm, considering the fact that you know nothing about my attitudes and behaviors, please refrain from your personal comments about me and limit your comments to the subject at hand.

As for your hypothetical situation, I find the answer in Gods word.

Matt 10:34-40
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' F46 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.[Bold emphasis mine to address your previous comments]

These are Jesus' words not mine. We don't always like what the Word has to say, but that doesn't change what it says.

 

RomOne16: Norm, considering the fact that you know nothing about my attitudes and behaviors, please refrain from your personal comments about me and limit your comments to the subject at hand.

Norm: I think one can make plausible assertions about your attitude toward the other based on your comments (which concerns the "subject at hand," thank you). And given the conceptual linkage between an attitude and a behavior, it would not be wrongheaded to suggest the two may be in some cases related, that is, a specific behavior reflecting a specifc attitude.

RomOne16: As for your hypothetical situation, I find the answer in Gods word.

Matt 10:34-40
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' F46 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.[Bold emphasis mine to address your previous comments]

RomOne16: These are Jesus' words not mine. We don't always like what the Word has to say, but that doesn't change what it says.

Norm: If this is the specific text that you wish to build a mission enterprise around, be my guest; I don't think, however, that you are going to find many missiologists that will support your perspective. And I would assume it would not be pleasing to the Lord for you to set faith against faith and person against person in order to prove the point that God is Love and that Jesus is the embodiment of such love, of which you wish to share? Again, no benefit in being offensive, but if that is your strategy, good luck.

 

Since you choose to make personal remarks about me in lieu of addressing the scripture in this discussion, this will be my last post to you in this thread.

And I don't rely on "luck", thanks. I rely on God.