Scholars vs. Laity

[Amy.G]

If scholars "know" more than the laity, why is it they disagree with one another about doctrine? Try finding 2 commentaries that agree 100%.

They are no more unified than any other group of Christians.

I don't have anything against education. Learning the original languages is a good thing, but I can't tolerate the arrogance in saying that simply because they are more educated than the laity they "know" more. The proof of their knowledge is in the life they live and the example they are to others, not how many books they read or how much money it cost them to go to school.

 

[Luke2427]

I think you missed my point. The scholar that thinks he must know more than the one layman he is talking to, because he is a scholar and the other is only a layman, he would be guilty of believing that he must know more than every layman on this earth, regardless of if he ever consciously thought of it that way or not.

No, I caught it and I agree- I just don't know any. I was simply saying that that was not what I was talking about when I made the statement in the OP. I was talking about the fact that AMy thinks it is arrogant for anyone to think that Bible scholars and those who've done the painstaking labor of pursuing a ThD tends to know more than laymen.

I think it is arrogant for laymen in general to believe that they are on par with those that have done the work and dedicated years of their lives to nothing but the study of the Scriptures and Theology and Church History.

I think it is arrogant for me- an educated pastor- to think that I can farm like a member of my church who has received a bachelors in farming and farmed for sixty years.

That would be arrogant of me.

I think it is arrogant for Amy, or anyone else to put themselves on par with someone who has a ThD. She may be right on occasioin and the other be wrong. But to think she knows as much as he does- well I think that is arrogant.

 

[Luke2427]

saying that simply because they are more educated than the laity they "know" more.

That's what it means to be educated- to know more. That's like saying- "I can't stand for Michael Phelps to say he is a better swimmer than ME just because he has won a few Olympic gold medals."

That doesn't make Phelps arrogant- it makes you arrogant- so arrogant that you can't stand for anyone to think or say they know more than you. That is the epitome of arrogance, is it not?

 

[Amy.G]

I think it is arrogant for Amy, or anyone else to put themselves on par with someone who has a ThD. She may be right on occasioin and the other be wrong. But to think she knows as much as he does- well I think that is arrogant.

When did I say that I put myself on par with a scholar or that I know more than anyone else??

My whole point has been that is arrogant for any of us to claim we know more than somebody else. That is pride and it is sinful.

 

[ashleysdad]

This is the part that I find offensive.




It is arrogant for anybody to claim they know more than another about the Bible whether they're a Sunday school student or a scholar.

Do you believe then that there is no point or need for seminary? That we should not study the Biblical languages and that developing strong hermenutics does not actually help someone in interpreting scripture? The bottom line is that while I have met MANY incredibly Godly, Spirit filled people that have never set foot in seminary,when it comes right down to it, the person that attends seminary and invests the hours upon hours of added study can in fact say that they know more about the Bible than the person who has not done this. It is not arrogance at all, it is confidence based on the time that they have put into the study of the scriptures. That is how it works in all aspects of life. The more that a person studies and learns about any topic provides them with more knowledge than someone who has not.

 

[Amy.G]

That's what it means to be educated- to know more. That's like saying- "I can't stand for Michael Phelps to say he is a better swimmer than ME just because he has won a few Olympic gold medals."

That doesn't make Phelps arrogant- it makes you arrogant- so arrogant that you can't stand for anyone to think or say they know more than you. That is the epitome of arrogance, is it not?

You might have a point if we were talking about secular, worldly things, but we're talking about the word of God. God reveals truth to ALL Christians who seek it. Not just scholars.

 

[Luke2427]

Do you believe then that there is no point or need for seminary? That we should not study the Biblical languages and that developing strong hermenutics does not actually help someone in interpreting scripture? The bottom line is that while I have met MANY incredibly Godly, Spirit filled people that have never set foot in seminary,when it comes right down to it, the person that attends seminary and invests the hours upon hours of added study can in fact say that they know more about the Bible than the person who has not done this. It is not arrogance at all, it is confidence based on the time that they have put into the study of the scriptures. That is how it works in all aspects of life. The more that a person studies and learns about any topic provides them with more knowledge than someone who has not.

Sure- absolutely. Good point. Do we say that a doctor cannot know more about medicine than the average layman? Of course not. Why not? Because he has dedicated himself wholly to the study of medicine. He has invested the time, tears, talents and treasures required to achieve a PhD.

That's why we don't go to layman when we need to have heart surgery.

This is true, as you say, across the board. Whether it be lawyers, plumbers, electricians or jet pilots. It is true in every other facet of life.

Why does Amy refuse to recognize that this is true with biblical training as well?

 

[Steven2006]

I
Worse yet, I cannot conceive of stumbling into a pseudo-piety of thinking that little education is laudable. I want my MD to have a degree. I want my architect to be educated. I want even my mechanic to be certified. Why would I want something less for my pastor?

I don't think that is at all what Amy was getting at with the OP. I assume she meant a layman that was self-educated, and did much self study, compared to someone who with a formal education such as going to a seminary for example.

Also I think analogy's such as an MD, architect, mechanic, etc, are lacking, because I am not aware of God using the Holy Spirit to reveal those areas of study to people. There is a vast difference with a diligent man that prayerfully studies the bible for many years, and a person that decided to reads on his own about being a surgeon, but you are implying they are the same.


Don't get me wrong, I am not in the least against a good education. But I believe that history is full of Godly men that understood scripture greatly that didn't have many degrees mounted in frames.

 

[Luke2427]

You might have a point if we were talking about secular, worldly things, but we're talking about the word of God. God reveals truth to ALL Christians who seek it. Not just scholars.

He reveals the truth they need. He reveals greater, deeper truths to those who devote themselves to dig deeper.

According to you we should just close down all seminaries, right? We ought to just trust God to fill our minds and mouths with knowledge and not invest in higher education because it does not give an ounce of advantage over laymen- right? Is that your position?

 

[Steven2006]

He reveals the truth they need. He reveals greater, deeper truths to those who devote themselves to dig deeper.

One can't dig deep unless in a classroom?

According to you we should just close down all seminaries, right? We ought to just trust God to fill our minds and mouths with knowledge and not invest in higher education because it does not give an ounce of advantage over laymen- right? Is that your position?

I don't think she said that nor implied that at all.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't think that is at all what Amy was getting at with the OP. I assume she meant a layman that was self-educated, and did much self study, compared to someone who with a formal education such as going to a seminary for example.

Also I think analogy's such as an MD, architect, mechanic, etc, are lacking, because I am not aware of God using the Holy Spirit to reveal these area of study to people. There is a vast difference with a diligent man that prayerfully studies the bible for many years, and a person that decided to read about being a surgeon.


Don't get me wrong, I am not in the least against a good education. But I believe that history is full of Godly men that understood scripture greatly that didn't have many degrees mounted in frames.

That's not the point. Just because God guides does not mean he supernaturally educates his people without their dedication to study. He rarely does that.

If you want to know your bible pray and read it. don't just expect god to give it you willy nilly.

If you want to really know your Bible pray and consult with solid commentaries written by great Bible scholars.

If you really, really want to know your bible pray and get a bachelors in Bible.

If you really want to know it and minister it to others with assurance that you have a solid enough grasp on it to be responsible for the shepherding of God's people then pray and get a master's.

God giving us the Holy Spirit does not eliminate our responsibility to do the painstaking labor involved in digging deeper.

 

[Luke2427]

One can't dig deep unless in a classroom?



I don't think she said that nor implied that at all.

She literally said that it is arrogant for anyone to say they know the Bible better than anyone else.

There is something to be said about sitting in a classroom under a brilliant scholar.

I don't think it should be scoffed at.

 

[Steven2006]

That's not the point. Just because God guides does not mean he supernaturally educates his people without their dedication to study. He rarely does that.

If you want to know your bible pray and read it. don't just expect god to give it you willy nilly.

If you want to really know your Bible pray and consult with solid commentaries written by great Bible scholars.

If you really, really want to know your bible pray and get a bachelors in Bible.

If you really want to know it and minister it to others with assurance that you have a solid enough grasp on it to be responsible for the shepherding of God's people then pray and get a master's.

God giving us the Holy Spirit does not eliminate our responsibility to do the painstaking labor involved in digging deeper.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.

 

[Steven2006]

She literally said that it is arrogant for anyone to say they know the Bible better than anyone else.

There is something to be said about sitting in a classroom under a brilliant scholar.

I don't think it should be scoffed at.

I think she said that is is arrogant for a person to say they absolutely know more about a subject of scripture than a specific person they might be discussing it with.

And that goes back to my very first point. If a person believes that, then they must believe that they have to know more about all of the bible than every layman on earth. If not how do they know that might not be the one layman that has a better understanding of that specific scripture they are talking about?

 

[Luke2427]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.

I think Amy is.

She has said that it is "arrogant" to think that people who earn degrees tend to have a firmer grasp on the Scriptures than those who do not.

She calls that arrogance.

I think it is arrogance to NOT DO THE PAINSTAKING LABOR and then demean those who do and demand that they are no more Bible savvy than anyone else. I think that smacks of arrogance.

Here is just one of her comments along these lines. There are others here and on the thread I started on the matter:

If scholars "know" more than the laity, why is it they disagree with one another about doctrine? Try finding 2 commentaries that agree 100%.

They are no more unified than any other group of Christians.

I don't have anything against education. Learning the original languages is a good thing, but I can't tolerate the arrogance in saying that simply because they are more educated than the laity they "know" more.

 

[Steven2006]

I think Amy is.

.

I didn't understand it that way, but I haven't read every post of hers on all these threads that have seemed to touch on this subject. So I guess it best to let her answer that herself.

 

[ashleysdad]

You might have a point if we were talking about secular, worldly things, but we're talking about the word of God. God reveals truth to ALL Christians who seek it. Not just scholars.

I absolutely agree with you. God does reveal truth to all Christians, but let me ask you this. Christian A has spent many years in seminary, they have studied the original languages and are well versed in them. They have spent years learning about the history and customs in the time frame that scripture was written in. For instance they know from their study just what was being referred to when Isaiah said "all of our righteousness is as filthy rags". They have learned how to use solid hermenutics in studying the Bible. Then there is Christian B, they have the exact same amount of the Holy Spirit. They have read Gods word faithfully everyday and never miss their time with God. They have not had the chance to go on to a seminary type of learning environment but God has shown them amazing things from His Word. Their lives are a sterling example of a true, sold out child of God. Who has the more knowledge? Not who is the better Christian or who has more of the Holy Spirit but who has more knowledge and can honestly say that they know more about things concerning the Bible?

 

[Luke2427]

I think she said that is is arrogant for a person to say they absolutely know more about a subject of scripture than a specific person they might be discussing it with.

It is not arrogant. Is it arrogant for a Greek expert to say- I think I know a little more about what that text says in the original than you do.

That's not arrogance.

And the point is not about one SAYING that he HIMSELF knows more than another.

The point in the thread I started to which she is referring is that it is NOT arrogant to recognize that scholars tend to know more than the rest of us.

And that goes back to my very first point. If a person believes that, then they must believe that they have to know more about all of the bible than every layman on earth. If not how do they know that might not be the one layman that has a better understanding of that specific scripture they are talking about?

Does God not honor hard work? Does he impart knowledge without study as a general rule?

If your answer is no- then it is arrogant for a person to have not done the work of getting a higher education and learning the languages and facing the severe theological exams and having to write 300 page theses, etc... to say- "I know as much as you do about these things!!!"

That is arrogance.

 

[Luke2427]

I absolutely agree with you. God does reveal truth to all Christians, but let me ask you this. Christian A has spent many years in seminary, they have studied the original languages and are well versed in them. They have spent years learning about the history and customs in the time frame that scripture was written in. For instance they know from their study just what was being referred to when Isaiah said "all of our righteousness is as filthy rags". They have learned how to use solid hermenutics in studying the Bible. Then there is Christian B, they have the exact same amount of the Holy Spirit. They have read Gods word faithfully everyday and never miss their time with God. They have not had the chance to go on to a seminary type of learning environment but God has shown them amazing things from His Word. Their lives are a sterling example of a true, sold out child of God. Who has the more knowledge? Not who is the better Christian or who has more of the Holy Spirit but who has more knowledge and can honestly say that they know more about things concerning the Bible?

I wish I could say it as well as you said it here. This should be the death nail to this discussion. You have said very well exactly what I have been saying. I can't imagine someone arguing against this post.

Good work.

 

[Steven2006]

Luke, to your 12:46am post.

A couple of things. First, you are speaking in generalities again, and if you go back to my first post, the very first thing I said is that most scholars would know more about the bible than most layman.

However one can be the most learned on a topic and still be wrong. If not all bible scholars would agree on every point. So for a scholar to say that he can say with authority that he must be right about a specific verse being discussed with another individual, is arrogant for it means he doesn't believe he could be wrong about any verse in the bible.

As far as God honoring hard work, yes He does. But that again that is just to general a statement to mean anything significant in this discussion. I know many people that worked harder and longer at things, but didn't have the God given abilities in that area as others who were more skilled with less work. Not no work mind you, but still less work. Also using that logic it means that any person with a Masters degree, must always know more about all the verse in the bible than anyone with Bachelor's degree. And the same for a someone with a Doctorate versus those with only a Masters.

Lets take it even further. With your reasoning any person who went to a school that is recognized as a better quality school with more higher level scholars as professors must end up always knowing more than those that go to schools with less standards.

So what we should do on boards like this is instead of debate, we should have every scholar list where they went to school, who were their professors, and what degrees they hold. The ones with only they highest of all standards should answer the questions for everyone, and be able to declare who is correct with every debate being discussed. And there should be no room for disagreement or complaint from those that didn't work as hard and diligently as those men because they must know more then everyone else.

OK, I admit to some hyperbole there at the end, but one can use your same argument to get us there each step of the way. Just different people discussing the same thing at higher and higher levels.