School Vouchers

[DeeJay]

Dragoon

I agree that there are criminals in all walks of life. I have seen millionairs and kids of millionairs who are hardend criminals. I have seen kids from the poorest families who make it big and do good things with there lifes.

If you want to just build more and more prisons, fine. But realize that a prision and the money to run it is a HUGE drain on public money. And that means a huge chunk out or your and my paychecks. If we can spend a dollar and save 10 I am for that. Obviously money is not the only reason people become criminals so some of that money will be spent. But if spending some will save alot then that would be wise.

While criminals come from all walks, being poor is a big factor. The difference between feeling hopeless from not being able to get a job because you can not read and having a job will push some over the line. It will be the deciding factor in at least some peoples choice to become criminals. There is evidence in the fact that the avg. inmate has less then a 6th grade education. That is an avg. those numbers have to play a roll, it is to much to be coinsidence. Again allowing that there are other factiors, you have to admit that education is one of the factors.

I agree that if people would turn to the Lord and His ways our criminal problems would be solved. But you know that this is not reality. The Bible says that most people will not choose this path. So we have to accept that most people are secular and deal with that.

 

[DeeJay]

In some countries - even "third world" countries - there's a lot more competion for seats in public schools. It's not free to all students through all grades. Kids work hard because they want to excel. Those they do get to the top. Those that don't get pushed out. That's a "foreign" concept isn't it?

Sounds like a private school.

So you are making the point that other countries run their public schools like we run private schools? and that is why they work better?

 

[Dragoon68]

...If you want to just build more and more prisons, fine. But realize that a prision and the money to run it is a HUGE drain on public money. And that means a huge chunk out or your and my paychecks. If we can spend a dollar and save 10 I am for that. Obviously money is not the only reason people become criminals so some of that money will be spent. But if spending some will save alot then that would be wise. ...

I agree that if people would turn to the Lord and His ways our criminal problems would be solved. But you know that this is not reality. The Bible says that most people will not choose this path. So we have to accept that most people are secular and deal with that.

Not putting criminals in prison is a huge drain on public safety and thereby on private money to pay for the consequences.

We have to accept that there will be crime and to deal with it there must be justice.

Behavior is the problem - not economic or educational status.

Build the prisons and fill them up as necessary.

 

[The Galatian]

Barbarian observes that countries without public school systems do very poorly.

To point to that one factor out of the many factors that can influece the standard of living would be pointless.

Not just the standard of living. Educational levels are lower for countries that don't rely on a public schools system. If you doubt it, compare.

There is no proof that that one factor is what makes standard of living lower.

You might want to test the idea that an educated population is unnecessary. That data is available too. Let us know what you learn.

I think a comparison of a counties type of goverment will play a bigger roll in the standard of living.

(talk of skiing and standards of living)

The point, of course, is that a public educational system is a requirement for a first world nation. I gather, since you no longer want to talk about education that you've figured this out.

 

[Dragoon68]

Sounds like a private school.

So you are making the point that other countries run their public schools like we run private schools? and that is why they work better?

With respect to advancement that may be partly true but certainly not in totality. In some examples, they're Communist run schools which certainly aren't like our private schools.

 

[The Galatian]

(talk of some countries where there is liimited access to public schools)

Sounds like a private school.

It does. Take a look at those countries and see how academic attainment matches those of countries with universal access to public ediucation.

So you are making the point that other countries run their public schools like we run private schools? and that is why they work better?

There are some like that, but they all have worse performance than we do.

In the Third International Math and Science tests, US 8th graders came in slightly above the average for 40 nations taking the test. Some states in the upper Midwest ranked with the highest in the world. Some states in the Southeast... well, not so good.

 

[DeeJay]

Not putting criminals in prison is a huge drain on public safety and thereby on private money to pay for the consequences.

We have to accept that there will be crime and to deal with it there must be justice.

Behavior is the problem - not economic or educational status.

Build the prisons and fill them up as necessary.

I agree. Criminals should be locked up. AND they should be locked up for longer then they are now. But I am not talking about people who are already criminals.

I am talking about attempting to have some not become criminals who otherwise would choose that path.

 

[DeeJay]

(talk of some countries where there is liimited access to public schools)



It does. Take a look at those countries and see how academic attainment matches those of countries with universal access to public ediucation.



There are some like that, but they all have worse performance than we do.

In the Third International Math and Science tests, US 8th graders came in slightly above the average for 40 nations taking the test. Some states in the upper Midwest ranked with the highest in the world. Some states in the Southeast... well, not so good.

I believe he was speaking about countries like Japan. Are their education levels lower then ours.

 

[Filmproducer]

This has been proven untrue in areas such as Orlando Fl Where I am from. A majority of employers will not hire you if you do not own your own transportation. If you must rely on public transportation you are unreliable because the current bussing system is unreliable and people do not in many cases make it to work when required.

It is a system that is burdensome as many are forced to travel downtown first before they get to their destination which was closer to them than the downtown area. The bus system in Orlando is a financial burden on the community as it remains in the red from year to year. I am not sure if it is a result of mismanagement or impossible scheduling but I'm sure a little of both. Either way it is inefficient, troublesome, burdensome, and unreliable. and in the end it does nothing to accomodate employers.

Lynx is definitely mismanaged, but over half of the employees of Universal, Disney, and Sea World rely on them to make it to work. I would not so easily claim that it does nothing to accomodate employers.

 

[The Galatian]

Barbarian notes that countries that do not offer public education to all students do not do as well as nations that do.

I believe he was speaking about countries like Japan. Are their education levels lower then ours.

No, there is compulsory public school for all in Japan. Like most of the US, high school is readily available and well over 90% attend, but it is not free. There is a tuition fee. It has the pleasant (for the teacher) effect of removing students who don't care.

However, in spite of cram schools (private after-school schools) which most students attend, japanese achievement in math and science is not much better than the better states achievements in the US. Consequently, the Japanese system is undergoing a reform to permit more individuality and to emphasize less cramming for tests and more effective learning.

 

[Daisy]

Voucher money could also go to American madrassas if it is allowed to go to any religious schools.

 

[DeeJay]

Voucher money could also go to American madrassas if it is allowed to go to any religious schools.

It could also go to Catholic schools. Whats your point?

Right now you can to deduct tax money that you donate to charity. So if I donate money to a madrassas and give the recept to H&R block then tax money has gone to a madrassas.

 

[Daisy]

It could also go to Catholic schools. Whats your point?

Right now you can to deduct tax money that you donate to charity. So if I donate money to a madrassas and give the recept to H&R block then tax money has gone to a madrassas.

My point is that some people who want to use tax funds to fund their religious activities sometimes forget that their religion is not the only one.

You are correct that it happens already.

 

[DeeJay]

My point is that some people who want to use tax funds to fund their religious activities sometimes forget that their religion is not the only one.

You are correct that it happens already.

I obviously dont forget my religion is not the only one. That would not be possible for me to do. See my location. :thumbs:

 

[Daisy]

I obviously dont forget my religion is not the only one. That would not be possible for me to do. See my location. :thumbs:

Oooh.

Does being a minority, as you are there, make you more sympathic towards minority positions or not? (just curious) You seem to be one of the less dogmatic people here.

 

[DeeJay]

Oooh.

Does being a minority, as you are there, make you more sympathic towards minority positions or not? (just curious) You seem to be one of the less dogmatic people here.

I think so in alot of ways. But I also think it is overplayed sometimes.

 

[Darron Steele]

I am against vouchers because I think that the government will corrupt anything that they can get their hands on since all men are in a state of total depravity and the non-Christian majority is unredeemed from depravity. Having said that, I also think that any school has to conform to certain governmental standards such as those from the Board of Health or the Fire Marshall.

When federal money first was spent for local education, we were assured that it would not lead to federal control. Now we are faced with federal mandates such as No Child Left Behind wherein the federal government tries to force accountability for the expenditure of federal tax dollars. Under the Great Society of LBJ there was no accountability and the intellectuals stole the money spent on education.

American education is very poor: it is the most expensive in the industralized world and yet the American youth have the worst achievement levels in the industralized world. Some of the fault has to lie with the teachers who have all embraced the socialistic philosophy of John Dewey. ....

Not all; many are just forced to abide by it.

 

[The Galatian]

American education is very poor:

I happen to know how US 8th graders do in science compared to other industrialized nations. They are above average in fourteen of sixteen categories tested in the TIMSS. And in the two they were less than average,
Science, Technology and Society US 47.5 World Avg. 47.9
Physical Chages US 49.1 World Avg. 52.8

it is the most expensive in the industralized world

Hmmm... let's see...

Expenditures for primary and secondary education as a percent of gross domestic product (GDP). While the United States had higher expenditures per student for primary and secondary education compared to the other countries presented, the United States placed in the middle of the countries presented based on public expenditures for primary and secondary education as a percent of GDP in 1998. With the addition of private expenditures for primary and secondary education, the United States still placed in the middle of the countries presented based on total public and private expenditures as a percent of GDP—behind France and Canada, about the same as Germany, and ahead of Italy and Japan.
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/quarterly/vol_5/5_2/q6_2.asp

and yet the American youth have the worst achievement levels in the industralized world.

As you see, our 8th graders are considerably above average in science, I just happened to have looked that one up. I'll bet it's similar in math.

Some of the fault has to lie with the teachers who have all embraced the socialistic philosophy of John Dewey. ....

As you probably know, most other nations are more socialistic than we are. A fair number of the few that rank higher than we do, are far more socialistic than we are. Out of forty plus nations taking the test, here's how the United States ranks:

• 
  
  [*]International average 473
• Singapore 578
• Chinese Taipei 571
• Korea, Republic of 558
  
  [*]Hong Kong 556
  
  [*]Estonia 552
  
  [*]Japan 552
  
  [*]Hungary 543
  
  [*]Netherlands 536
  
  [*](United States)527
  
  

http://nces.ed.gov/timss/TIMSS03Tables.asp?Quest=3&Figure=6

I don't really see a trend between moderately socialistic and free market societies; (relative to the US) both are represented at the top, as you can see. The more extreme socialist states did not take part in this study; it would be interesting to see how they compare.

You probably ought to thank the next 8th grade science teacher you meet, for making our kids above average, compared to other developed nations.