Scripture Supporting a Pretrib Removal of the Church

[OldRegular]

Ephesisns 2:1-7 [NKJV]
1. And you (He made alive), who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:1-7 [NASB]
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ephesisns 2:6-7 [NKJV]

6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

I'm surprised you would quote this dispensational passage.

 

[Pastor Larry]

What is your point, OR? That is clearly referring to the moment of salvation. The "giving of life" in Rev 20 cannot be the moment of salvation referred to here, because these people were killed for their faith and testimony. In other words, Eph 2 is clearly referring to something different. Why didn't you cite John 11 as a parallel kind of passage? Or 2 Kings 4? Those talk about resurrections. Why are they not parallels?

Consider Rev 20 for a moment. Can there be any doubt that the people in v. 4 were physically killed? I don't think so. The passage is abundantly clear on that. It also indicates that the "coming to life" is a response to, or an offset of the previous dying. Therefore, the coming to life is of the same basic nature as the dying. If one is physical, then the other should be as well. It takes a tremendous exegetical jump to say that the dying is one kind and the living is another kind.

Lastly, I still haven't seen a good answer for what a purely spiritual resurrection is. If the spirit never dies, then how is it raised back to life?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Eph. 2:1-7 is speak of our spiritual that we were dead in sins at our first born through Adam's sin(Romans 5:12), when we believe and born again, then Christ made us live again that the Holy Spirit comae sin out body that we are alive 'spiritual life'. Christ already make us alive at the moment of our salvation, and will be continue through all ages, and the age to come - eternality period after Christ's coming.

Understand, word, 'ageS' is not mean there will be more ages yet to come in the future such as millennial kingdom, then eternality kingdom. 'Ages' speak of through all ages from Calvary to the end of the age, no limited time like as 2,000 years or 3,000 years or more to be continued.

Eph. 2:6 is speak of heavenly reign with Christ, it already been happening since post Calvary, because Christ already rise and now sit on the right hand of God the Father in heaven, and Christ already set saints sit with Christ in the heaven since post Calvary to now, and will be continue more ages to come.

Understand my point of Eph. 2:6-7?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Larry,

Can there be any doubt that the people in v. 4 were physically killed? I don't think so

Oh yes! Cannot you see Church history telling us that there were thousands, and thousands of Christians were already beheaded or martyred for their faith, obivously, they were killed -physically. Yes, many who were killed for their faith in Christ, are now reigning with Christ in heaven.

Rev. 6:9-11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were SLAIN for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should yest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that sould be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The fifth seal of Rev. 6:9-11 already happening since Early Church to today, and continuing happening right now till Christ comes. Thousands of Christians have been persecuted and killed in physically because of their faith and testimony for Christ. Also, many of them who were killed, NOW have white robes, because they already overcometh them through their faith are now in the heaven with Christ.

James 2:26 explains more clear about our spirit and body, it says, "For as the body WITHOUT the spirit is dead..."

James' point is, we all have spirit and soul within our body as 'trinity' all go together at the same. Once our soul/spirit depart our body, then immediately we died. spirit/soul are eternity, our body is temporary, because our body will have back to the dust again. Because Adam was created from the dust(Gen. 2:7). When we died, our body back to the dust as our body being decay bcome into dust. But our soul never die, our soul either go to two destiny places - heaven or hell.

Look at a rich man of Luke 16:22,23 telling us when a rich man died, then immediately, "he LIFT up his eyes, being in tornments, and SEETH Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Clearly, this is speak of rich man's soul is now in the hell, alive but 'spiritual death' because of already separated from God. Rich man's body is already dead, his body is now in the graven, but his soul is now in hell, he is suffering, his eyes is still open in the hell alive.

Understand, soul is a mystery to us. But, we have to believe(faith) what the Bible saying.

John never saying "body" of Rev. 20:4. He said, "I saw the SOUL OF them".

We know that there are two different meanings of soul, soul is figuratively means person, also, soul means spirit.

Larry, you explained of soul means person. I agree with you, depend on what the grammar of verse is talking about.

When we read Rev. 20:4, it is differently meaning of what another verses as what you(Larry) discussed on 'soul'.

Rev. 20:4 is not talking about persons, it talks about people's SOUL. They were killed for their faith and testimony, their souls are now with the Lord, are reigning with Christ since they were killed.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "Understand, word, 'ageS' is not mean there will be more ages yet to come in the future such as millennial kingdom, then eternality kingdom. 'Ages' speak of through all ages from Calvary to the end of the age, no limited time like as 2,000 years or 3,000 years or more to be continued. "

I note when you define a term in the Bible it is "in context"
and when i define a term in the Bible it is "NOT contextual".
I think there is at least ONE AGE after the one we are in.
And Eph 2:6-7 is NOT the only place that says it.
The next age is the age of the Messanic Kingdom. Sure,
1,000 years may not mean 1,000 years to the second. But it
sure doesn't mean "ignore me if you can't believe me".

DeafPostrrib: "Understand my point of Eph. 2:6-7?"

I understand. I'm cursed with the gift of understanding.
I also understand that if it can be understood literaly, then
understand it that way.

DeafPostrrib: "Cannot you see Church history telling us that there were thousands, and thousands of Christians were already beheaded or martyred for their faith, obivously, they were killed -physically. "

I've told you the number dozens of times. It is over 48 million.
Of the 8,300 Million called Christians who died, how many
are real on-God's-role Christians?

While Revelation 20:4 does mention "soul" it does NOT mention
that those souls are detached from the bodies. Tee Hee it does
mention that their heads had been detached from the bodies

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Can there be any doubt that the people in v. 4 were physically killed? I don't think so

Oh yes! Cannot you see Church history telling us that there were thousands, and thousands of Christians were already beheaded or martyred for their faith, obivously, they were killed -physically.</font>[/QUOTE]That is my point. And in Rev 20, the "coming to life" is the direct response to the "killing." If it is physical death, the it seems it must, in context, be physical resurrection.

Yes, many who were killed for their faith in Christ, are now reigning with Christ in heaven.

Probably not, since SCripture does not teach anywhere that I can recall that anyone is currently reigngin with Christ, but irrelevant.

The fifth seal of Rev. 6:9-11 already happening since Early Church to today,

Probably not. That is a reference to end time judgment during the Tribulation, as is indicated by its place in the other judgments that have no yet happened. That doesn't deny that people have been killed for their faith all throughout church history, but that is not what Rev 6:9-11 is talking about.

But our soul never die, our soul either go to two destiny places - heaven or hell.

Which is exactly why a "coming to life" of the soul makes no sense at all. Yet that is what OR and you seem to be arguing for. How does a soul that never died "come to life"? The coming to life has to be something other than the soul.

John never saying "body" of Rev. 20:4. He said, "I saw the SOUL OF them".

As you say, "...soul means person" and includes the body, in many contexts.

Rev. 20:4 is not talking about persons, it talks about people's SOUL.

Isn't this a problem for anthropology? You seem to assert that a person is only a person when they have a body. What is a person after death when the soul is separated from the body? Are they not a person anymore?

There is no doubt that believers who have died are now with Christ. There is no doubt that there will be a future resurrection of their bodies to reunite with their spirits. We don't know exactly the mechanics of that. We should not say that they are now reigning with Christ. That can't be supported.

Lastly, you have to remember that REv 30:4 follows 20:1 where Satan is bound for 1000 years. There is a temporal sequence of 1) Satan is bound; 2) some come to life; 3) thousand years; 4) the rest of the dead come to life.

Satan is not now currently bound. Peter says he walks about as a roaring lion. Paul says he now disguises himself as an angel of light. Those indicate that Rev 20 has not yet taken place, but still must take place in the future.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pastor Larry: //And in Rev 20, the "coming to life" is the direct response to the "killing." If it is physical death, the it seems it must, in context, be physical resurrection.//

Amen, Brother Pastor Larry -- Preach it!

 

[OldRegular]

John 3:3-8 [1769 KJV]

3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

SEEMS LIKE NICODEMUS STILL LIVES AND STILL WON'T, OR CAN'T, UNDERSTAND!

 

[Pastor Larry]

What? I don't follow you at all. This verse, as above, talks about new birth in regeneration, not about an end time resurrection, which is what the topic here is.

Nicodemus was physically alive, but not spiritually alive, until he was born of hte Spirit. That was not a "resurrection" per se, since he never had life previously. We don't call a physical birth a physical resurrection. In the same way, we don't call a spiritual birth a resurrection.

 

[OldRegular]

If they were not spiritually alive then they were spiritually dead but made spiritually alive by the new birth, just as Jesus Christ said in John 5:25, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I agree with that, but again, isn't that off topic? We were talking about the end-time resurrection, not the new birth at salvation. I think we probably agree on that.

YOu used JOhn 5:28-29 earlier, as proof of a single end-time general resurrection. Now you appear to be changing subjects to talk about the new birth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I agree with that, but again, isn't that off topic? We were talking about the end-time resurrection, not the new birth at salvation. I think we probably agree on that.

YOu used JOhn 5:28-29 earlier, as proof of a single end-time general resurrection. Now you appear to be changing subjects to talk about the new birth.

Don't bet he will be disagreeing.

What you are seeing is typical Mysticism.
The Mystic Christian theology is based on
spiriutalizing most everything. Jesus comes
again to yo when you God saved. So you were
glorified when you were justified. (I've seen
this so wierd that the person claimed to have
been scantified when they were justified/glorified,
when they got saved. One mysic Christian claimed
he hadn't sinned for 20 years (since he
had been saved/justified/glorified/scantified).
We who put a more practical side to the
reality of salvation realise there is:

1. past salvation: justification by Jesus, the Christ.
2. present salvation: daily scantification by Jesus, the Christ.
3. future salvation: glorification by Jesus, the
Christ at a specific physical future time.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Which is exactly why a "coming to life" of the soul makes no sense at all. Yet that is what OR and you seem to be arguing for. How does a soul that never died "come to life"? The coming to life has to be something other than the soul.

Originally posted by OldRegular:
If they were not spiritually alive then they were spiritually dead but made spiritually alive by the new birth, just as Jesus Christ said in John 5:25, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I agree with that, but again, isn't that off topic? We were talking about the end-time resurrection, not the new birth at salvation. I think we probably agree on that.

YOu used JOhn 5:28-29 earlier, as proof of a single end-time general resurrection. Now you appear to be changing subjects to talk about the new birth.

Don't bet he will be disagreeing.

What you are seeing is typical Mysticism.
The Mystic Christian theology is based on
spiriutalizing most everything. Jesus comes
again to yo when you God saved. So you were
glorified when you were justified. (I've seen
this so wierd that the person claimed to have
been scantified when they were justified/glorified,
when they got saved. One mysic Christian claimed
he hadn't sinned for 20 years (since he
had been saved/justified/glorified/scantified).
We who put a more practical side to the
reality of salvation realise there is:

1. past salvation: justification by Jesus, the Christ.
2. present salvation: daily scantification by Jesus, the Christ.
3. future salvation: glorification by Jesus, the
Christ at a specific physical future time. </font>[/QUOTE]EE

Your mythology doesn't merit response!

 

[Pastor Larry]

I must confess OR, I don't get your point.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
EE

Your mythology doesn't merit response!

You contradict yourself.
My post doesn't merit reponse, but you
responded

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
EE

Your mythology doesn't merit response!

You contradict yourself.
My post doesn't merit reponse, but you
responded

</font>[/QUOTE]If it makes you feel good?

 

[Ed Edwards]

It always makes me feel good to win a debate.
Thank you.

Would you like to go over the scriptures that
teach a petribulation removal of the
church ONE BY ONE?

Here is an interesting passage.
People used to ask me: "How come Jesus
never spake of the pretrib evaucation
of the gentile Church?"

Then the Holy Spirit showed me the
polysyndeton "kai" ('and').
The Greeks didn't have Microsoft word so
they couldn't put in bullets nor outline.
So they used "kai" ('and') for the outline.
The major outline of Matthew 24 as shown
IN LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE: Matthew 24:3 is
shown below.
------------------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
---------------------------------------

This is a key passage for the pretribulatin
removal of the Church, the gathering, before
the Tribulation 7-year-day, please don't
ignore it. Please don't talk about
"secret rapture" which i've not ever started
the discussion of, talk about "polysyndeton".
Thank you.

 

[OldRegular]

Your eisegesis of Matthew 24 is underwhelming.

Verses 16-20 have nothing to do with the Second Coming. Tell me if Jesus Christ is coming for His Church what would be the point of the following Scripture:

16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The above Scripture are related to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.