Scriptures calvinists must deal with...

[Luke2427]

My argument should have been clear to you. But to re-state the obvious: I said you are trying to use the word "world" in both a broad and narrow sense from within the same sentence and then I posted your quote to show the hypocrisy in your statement.

Edit, in case you forgot:

It CAN be used in both a broad and narrow sense.

But, for the tenth time, it's NORMAL usage is most certainly NOT every single person.

The whole WORLD knows this!

 

[Alive in Christ]

David Lamb...

But one thing I trust we agree on, as I mentioned in my earlier post, is that sinners can only be accepted by a God Who is perfect and holy, because of our Saviour's perfect sacrifice of Himself.

Absolutely, brother.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It CAN be used in both a broad and narrow sense.

But, for the tenth time, it's NORMAL usage is most certainly NOT every single person.

The whole WORLD knows this!

You mean ALL people dont you Luke? ROFL:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Is it your contention that EVERYONE is God's elect???

No, but I know that I am saved. Christ lived in the world of the first century and I live 2000 years after that. Therefore how could "the world" simply refer to the world of the time of Christ--a regionalized area? If it does it certainly casts doubt on your salvation (because that is what you seem to believe).

If not, are you saying that the only way ANYONE can KNOW that they are God's elect is because Jesus died for EVERYBODY.

If Christ did not die for everyone then all people would not have the opportunity to be saved, and that would include you. Why would you think that you have any more chance than anyone else in the world; that is that Christ favored you more than anyone else? Christ is not biased, but you are making him out to be.
Salvation is dependent on the choice one makes: whether to receive Christ or reject him.

Even those passages you people use to support unlimited atonement- I've NEVER heard anybody argue that those passages are the only ones that give Christians assurance of their salvation.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Titus 2:11)
--Did he die just for the "men" of the first century, of for you too?

I do not have to believe that he died for everybody in order to know that he died for me.

Then what do you have to know? Christ died for the sins of the world. Whosoever believes on him shall be saved. It does not say Christ died for the elect and if the elect shall believe on him then the elect shall be saved. If that is what it says, then you have a different Bible then mine.

Not even an ARMINIAN theologian would make such a ridiculous argument.

Then quoting John 3:16? I don't think so.

 

[Luke2427]

No, but I know that I am saved. Christ lived in the world of the first century and I live 2000 years after that. Therefore how could "the world" simply refer to the world of the time of Christ--a regionalized area? If it does it certainly casts doubt on your salvation (because that is what you seem to believe).

Whoever said world meant only that generation???

That's ridiculous.

Are you debating me or somebody in your head? Because I never said any such thing.

But I'll tell you this.

World pretty much NEVER EVER means every single person in EVERY SINGLE GENERATION SINCE the world began.

When you try to force it to mean that you have REALLY adopted a self-centered hermeneutic- one that just suits YOUR beliefs- truth be hanged!

If Christ did not die for everyone then all people would not have the opportunity to be saved, and that would include you.

WHAT????????????????????????????????????????

That is UTTERLY PREPOSTEROUS!

If he did not die for EVERYBODY then he could not have died for ME??????

Why would you think that you have any more chance than anyone else in the world;

Here's a far better question- WHY WOULD YOU?

Why do you get to go and others do not?

Why are you saved and others are not?

OH YEA! YOU. That's why. Because of your superior wisdom that enabled you to make a wise choice.

It must be great to be better than billions of lost people.

Better by being wiser or more sensitive to the Spirit or less depraved or raised in better circumstances or whatever.

But you are going to heaven because in some way you are better than all those who are not.

Right?

that is that Christ favored you more than anyone else? Christ is not biased, but you are making him out to be.
Salvation is dependent on the choice one makes: whether to receive Christ or reject him.

He absolutely DOES favor his people above all others.

And it has nothing to do with them. That is why it is called GRACE.

Saving grace is NOT for everybody or everybody would be going to heaven.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Titus 2:11)
--Did he die just for the "men" of the first century, of for you too?

All almost NEVER means every single person. It usually doesn't mean the majority of individuals of the world.

It almost always, when speaking of the world, refers to people from all over the world.

God's salvation does not just come to Israel. It comes to the whole world.
It does not just come to the Jews but to all.

Then quoting John 3:16? I don't think so.

Who cares what you think. What you think has no bearing on what IS.

What IS a fact is that WORLD almost NEVER means EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH.

It pretty much NEVER means every single person on earth in every generation that has or ever will be!!

That is HORRIFIC hermeneutics that drive you to that ridiculous slaughter of that term.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK, you posted...

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Titus 2:11)

And we can add to that the truth that the Apostle John wrote, that Christ is...

...the true light that gives light to every man that comes into the world

(John 1:9)

Every human being recieves revelation regarding the existance of God, eternal life, salvation, etc etc etc.

Every single person is without excuse, if they refuse Christ.

AiC

 

[Luke2427]

DHK, you posted...



And we can add to that the truth that the Apostle John wrote, that Christ is...

(John 1:9)

Every human being recieves revelation regarding the existance of God, eternal life, salvation, etc etc etc.

Every single person is without excuse, if they refuse Christ.

AiC

NOBODY argues with that.

But that is not the sum of what he is purporting.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke...

You responded to DHK with this...

It must be great to be better than billions of lost people.

Better by being wiser or more sensitive to the Spirit or less depraved or raised in better circumstances or whatever.

But you are going to heaven because in some way you are better than all those who are not.

I'm stunned. I cant believe a calvinist would betray such hypocricy.

The entire point of Calvinism is that Almighty God arbitrarilly decides to "cherry pick" these billions of LUCKY ONES to savation, while these UNLUCKY billions over there are DAMNED to hell fire...simply because God said so.

Wow. This is a TEN TON POT...meeting a tiny little kettle.

Goodness.

 

[DHK]

What IS a fact is that WORLD almost NEVER means EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH.

It pretty much NEVER means every single person on earth in every generation that has or ever will be!!

That is HORRIFIC hermeneutics that drive you to that ridiculous slaughter of that term.

What is a fact, Luke, is that the Bible disagrees with your theology.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world, all of mankind of all ages.
If he didn't then there would be no guarantee of you being saved, much less of anyone else in any other age from the first century onward being saved. The reason we can is that He died for all sins of all men of all ages.

His grace is toward all men, as Titus 2:11 states.
Salvation is by grace through faith.
Since the atonement is for all men, it is only beneficial for those that appropriate it unto themselves. It must be appropriated. One must believe on Christ. It is only universal in the sense that it is available for all. But not all avail themselves of His great offer of salvation.

God knows who the elect are; not you. It becomes our duty then to go and evangelize, carry the gospel to the untold thousands that are still untold.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke...

Regarding this statement of mine...

Every human being recieves revelation regarding the existance of God, eternal life, salvation, etc etc etc.

Every single person is without excuse, if they refuse Christ.

You responded...

NOBODY argues with that.

Oh, yes they do! :thumbs: Trust me. :laugh:

I posted that simple biblical statement way earlier on this thread, or maybe another C/A tread, and gooodness gracious...the dust flew like you cant believe! All of these calvinist brothers, actually (((DENYING))) that scriptural truth!

I think that they were just all worked up over something, and maybe NOW the see the folly they were perpetuating.

I sure hope so.

I couldnt believe it.

AiC

 

[Luke2427]

Luke...

You responded to DHK with this...



I'm stunned. I cant believe a calvinist would betray such hypocricy.

The entire point of Calvinism is that Almighty God arbitrarilly decides to "cherry pick" these billions of LUCKY ONES to savation, while these UNLUCKY billions over there are DAMNED to hell fire...simply because God said so.

Wow. This is a TEN TON POT...meeting a tiny little kettle.

Goodness.

No, no.

If you believe that you are going to heaven because you made some decision that billions do not make then you believe you are going to heaven because you are in some way better than those billions who did not make the same decision you made.

That is what Arminianism and this new nameless theology the IFBers gave us teaches.

If you were not in some way better then explain why you get to go to heaven whereas billions of others do not.

You'll want to say at this point- "Because I chose to respond to the Gospel call and they did not," or something like that.

But the question is WHY did you respond and they did not?

The answer is that you are in some way better than them.

Maybe you are better than the damned because you are wiser than them and with that wisdom you made the wise choice that they foolishly did not make. But wisdom is better than foolishness. So you are better than them.

Or maybe you'll say that you made the choice and they didn't because your heart was more sensitive to the Holy Spirit than theirs. Being sensitive to the Holy Spirit is BETTER than being hard towards Him. So you are better than them.

Any way you slice it, when YOU are the determining factor concerning whether or not you go to heaven- iow, God has done all he can do now it is up to YOU- then YOU are the one who makes the BETTER decision. Therefore you are BETTER in some way than the billions who perish.

There's no way around it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Aic,

Every human being recieves revelation regarding the existance of God, eternal life, salvation, etc etc etc.

This was not true the first time you posted it,and is not true now.

they know nothing about salvation ,unless exposed to the word of God.

the light of nature, or conscience is not enough to save. Do not try to trick Luke .

Luke.....do you believe that every human who has lived has been given special revelation of how to be saved by Jesus blood shed on the cross?

 

[Luke2427]

What is a fact, Luke, is that the Bible disagrees with your theology.

Bull. Number one- you don't even have a theology so it is poor etiquette for you to critique ANY Christian theology.

That is like me giving my Alabama fan buds a hard time when Auburn won the title this year. I don't have a team I pull for. I just criticize theirs to get under their skin. They point out often- "Get a team that we can criticize THEN you can criticize ours!"

So to you I say- Get a theology and then you can criticize somebody else's.

If you have one, as I am sure you are going to claim- what is it called?

Let me guess- THE BIBLE, right?

I hope you will spare us from that level of arrogance.

And he is the propitiation for our sinsthe sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2): and not for ours only, but also for

Not for the Jews only but for the whole world.

Once again, DHK, whole world almost NEVER means every single person.

The whole WORLD knows this.

Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world, all of mankind of all ages.
If he didn't then there would be no guarantee of you being saved, much less of anyone else in any other age from the first century onward being saved. The reason we can is that He died for all sins of all men of all ages.

I'm sorry but that's just pure ignorant.

He doesn't have to die for EVERYBODY so that ANYBODY can know that they are saved.

NNE with an OUNCE of theological training of ANY SORT (Arminian, Calvinist, Molinist, Anglican, etc...) tries to argue such an ignorant point.

No body thinks Christ had to die for EVERYBODY for ANYBODY to have assurance of their salvation.

That is UTTERLY ridiculous.

See if you can get anybody to sign off on that silly argument. I bet other than Snow and Winman you can't.

I'll go one further. I'll bet you can't FIND that ridiculous argument in ANY reputable theological literature. (Sheldon Smith does not count in case you were wondering)

His grace is toward all men, as Titus 2:11 states.
Salvation is by grace through faith.
Since the atonement is for all men, it is only beneficial for those that appropriate it unto themselves. It must be appropriated. One must believe on Christ. It is only universal in the sense that it is available for all. But not all avail themselves of His great offer of salvation.

You made all this up. You did not prove by this verse that the atonement is available for every one. We've already shown you that you are ABUSING the HECK out of the terms "all" and "whole world". So repeating your error is not proof of anything.

Furthermore, you did not provide a single verse that says this crud about universal in it's offer but limited in it's application.

You just said it, and I guess because you are a moderator, it must be so.

God knows who the elect are; not you. It becomes our duty then to go and evangelize, carry the gospel to the untold thousands that are still untold.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke and Iconoclast....

Its this guys bedtime.

I'll pick right up with both of your most recent posts to me sometime tomorrow.


God bless.


AiC