SDA and Spiritual Gifts,

[Ben W]

Gidday my SDA buddies and others,

Can anyone tell me how the Seventh Day Adventist Church deals with the issue of Cessationism and Modern use of Spiritual Gifts?

I am tipping that SDA churches would be accepting of the gift of Prophecy based on E G W, How abou the issue of speaking in tounges?

Have any of the SDA brethren caught up with Pastor Chet on the board? He is a SDB Pastor, ministering in a Native American Mission. His testiomony of how he got onto the Sabbath is amazing. The resources he has on the Sabbath on his Webpage Rezconnection are excellent also. Check out his profile if you have time.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Hey Ben,

Long time no see!

Where has Pastor Chet posted?

As far as the gifts, we believe that the gifts are still in use today.

We do not define tongues the way that Charismatic churches do, however.

Tongues is still in use, and I know of several Missionary Evangelists that have experienced this gift.

They experience it the way it was at Pentecost, for the purpose of spreading the Gospel.

It is not used for 'prayer', or for self edification during a church service. It is for giving the Gospel to people of other languages.

It has happened in my own congregation.

We have an English Pastor and a largely English congregation, but being in California we do see some Spanish speaking peoples.

There was a rather large family of Mexicans coming week after week, listening intently, never showing any instance of misunderstanding. But when approached, they couldn't carry on a conversation with any of the English speaking members.

The whole family has since, been baptized and made a profession of Faith in Jesus to a man in the church that DOES speak spanish.

They said that they understood our pastor quite well.

He was speaking English.

The result? Conversion.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

I found his profile, and went to his site.

What I found is, for lack of a better word, sad.

"I collected everything I could find (not an easy task) from books to tapes and articles on the internet. I intentionally tried to avoid Seventh day Adventist publications, because of my aversion to their heretical beliefs. Yet it is almost unavoidable when researching the Sabbath, because the preponderance of available materials are published by them.

I urge anyone who studies the issue for themselves not to be deceived by this sect-borderline cult."

Why do people feel led to do this? Here we have, a denomination that has the PRIMARY goal of reaching people for Jesus, and we see a supposed man of God, telling people to steer clear of them.

What would prompt someone to do so?

Do we preach a different Jesus?
Do we teach people to sacrifice chickens or something?

What is his problem?

What would he have someone do? When they discover the Sabbath truth come to the SDB church instead?

Is he bothered that someone might find truth, and be enriched in their relationship with God through it?

Or is he bothered that those who join the SDA church instead of the SDB church go to fill the coffers of the SDA rather than his?

hmmmmm

 

[3AngelsMom]

Here is another problem:

"The Seventh Day Adventists believe that when a man dies, his condition is one of unconsciousness. All men remain in the grave from death until the resurrection. Some regard the Adventist view as teaching that nothing survives death."

This is VERY scriptural. There are numerous verses that state that men no longer have consciousness after death.

"The doctrine of Soul Sleep rests on the Bible's use of ‘sleep’ to refer to death. Also those who hold the Soul Sleep view tend to think of man as a unitary entity. "

Unitary entity? Not so. We are 'dust' and 'breath'. When the body dies, it is BECAUSE the Breath of Life (from God) has left it, and IT is what goes back to God.

"But the Scriptures seem to indicate that there is personal, conscious existence between death and resurrection."

Now, the verses he gave to support this idea, do NOT support this idea!

Luke 16:19-31,
19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If he believes this Parable is literal, then I hope he has fun trying to find room on Abrahams chest.

Luke 23:43
43. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Did Jesus go to Paradise that day? Do we have any indication that the thief even DIED on that day?
There was no punctuation in the original. That comma makes it say something that wasn't said. Jesus didn't go to Paradise that day.

Luke 23:46
46. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

And he thinks that THAT indicates conscious thought and immidiate prescence at death?

Again, did Jesus go right to heaven when He died? What did He say to Mary Magdalene at the tomb?

Acts 7:59
59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

He said the same thing Jesus did. Interesting huh? What Spirit is that, that Stephen ask God to receive? "pneuma" The Greek equivalent of the word that is used to describe the 'breath' that God formed Adam with. Interesting huh?

Funny thing is, Pastor Chet didn't include the following verse. Typical.

60. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

"and other passages, support this position."

I'd like to see those.

"In any case the word ‘sleep’ is a figure of speech, and it is doubtful whether the figure of speech can be used to support the doctrine of Soul Sleep."

Another one of THOSE. Those silly bible writers. Using those FIGURES of speech again. Why didn't they just SAY 'and he went to heaven'??? Could it be because HE DIDN'T???

How am I supposed to take anything this guy says seriously?

He bad mouths the SDA.
Then does a really bad eisigetical study of Soul Sleep.

And we are supposed to come running?

Sheesh

 

[Ben W]

ThreeAngelsMom, Gidday how are you keeping?

I can not speak for Pastor Chet on his views on the SDA, yet it appears to me that most christians do tend to classify the SDA as some type of cult, although most are not really at all sure why.

As I see it the SDA has become alot more mainstream over the years, particularly in England, yet I can see some areas of disagreement that could be taken fairly strongly.

One is the basis of the movement was on a prophecy that Christ was returning, which was later deemed the great dissapointment. False Prophecy is serious and you could well expect to cop a load over that, not that other churches are innocent either though.

Also you would be well aware that a number of SDA people have made statements like "Sunday Keeping is the mark of the Beast" etc. People will naturally respond to that.

We have probably done the whole Soul Sleep deal before, you would be aware that I believe in the immediate heaven. Sure some verses in the bible could be taken as the soul sleep view, I can also equally see verses which convince me of heaven. In the Church of God Seventh Day I attended I had their Soul Sleep doctrine rammed down my throat constantly, and because I spoke against the idea I was discriminated against be it intentionally or not. So I can understand people publishing stuff against that idea also.

I am not keen on some of the personal abuse I cop from people over my views on Sabbath keeping, so I can Understand you feel hurt by statements about the SDA. Consider where people are comming from when they say this. I have found Pastor Chet to be a really top bloke. I am sure you could work it out.

So anyway getting back to our thread, I would be on the understanding then that the SDA accept Spiritual Gifts. So do they pray for healing for the sick? Do you lay hands on people in prayer? Would your Pastor allow one of the Congregation to speak in tounges within your church?

 

[Briguy]

3AM wrote:
""Tongues is still in use, and I know of several Missionary Evangelists that have experienced this gift.""

With all due respect your statement is not accurate according to what the Bible teaches. The spirtual gift of tongues was never a language that was spoken one way and heard another way. This gift was miraculos and those who had it would speak the actual language of the person they were communicating with. They spoke the language plain and simple. There would be no need for the gift of interpretation of tongues if the person heard the language that they spoke but the speaker said the words in the common language. Tongues in the "assembly" worked liked this:

When some foreigners came into the assembly and could not understand the language that was being spoken a tongues speaker would share a message with them in their own language. This would edify the foreign speaking Christians or be a sharing of the gospel to them, depending if they were saved. An interpreter would then intepret the message spoken so the rest of the gathered assembly could be edified by the message spoken. It was that easy. Remember, spiritual gifts edify the "body". Also, In 1 cor. 14 we read toward the end that if there was no interpreter the tongues speaker would not speak, and why was this? because with no intepretaion there was no corporate edification and so the gift of tongues would be used inappropriately.

3AM, I am very glad the hispanic folks you spoke of got saved, Praise God. If they understood more then they should have it was a miracle of God, not the gift of tongues, which we know was a sign to unbelieving Isreal of their pending 70ad destruction.

Sorry to ramble but the Bible is clear with these things and I felt like I needed to write these things. Forgive me if anything sounded harsh.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[3AngelsMom]

Brian,

I don't know what to call it then! Maybe it is just interpretation of tongues?

The people listening are interpreting a language that they don't know.

Sound plausible?

I can see your point about the actual speaker using a different language, but that wouldn't edify the body, because the majority was English speaking. So if my Pastor suddenly started speaking Spanish, then none of us would have been edified.

You see what I mean?

So by having the EARS of the hearers under control of the Holy Spirit, THAT edified the body, because people were saved.

They talk REALLY fast too. I listen to them when they are getting onto their kids and stuff, and I don't know how they even understand each other!

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ben W:
[QB] ThreeAngelsMom, Gidday how are you keeping?

I can not speak for Pastor Chet on his views on the SDA, yet it appears to me that most christians do tend to classify the SDA as some type of cult, although most are not really at all sure why.

As I see it the SDA has become alot more mainstream over the years, particularly in England, yet I can see some areas of disagreement that could be taken fairly strongly.

One is the basis of the movement was on a prophecy that Christ was returning, which was later deemed the great dissapointment. False Prophecy is serious and you could well expect to cop a load over that, not that other churches are innocent either though.

And even YOU have a misconception.

There was no prophecy. The Millerites misinterpreted a BIBLE prophecy. How many people would you say are doing that RIGHT NOW? Let's see, the Left Behind movement, is effecting over 10,000,000 people RIGHT NOW. All of which is MISinterpretation of prophecy. There is no reason to try to excuse what the Millerites did. They were earnest in their expectation, and they were fulfilling a prophecy in the misinterpretation. The Great Disappointment is the prophecy of the "Little Book" in Revelation. Referring to Daniel. It was DANIEL that they were interpreting. It was SWEET going down, but became very bitter.

Also you would be well aware that a number of SDA people have made statements like "Sunday Keeping is the mark of the Beast" etc. People will naturally respond to that.

And sadly, their response is not led by the Spirit. It is a true test. If they were led by the Spirit they would AT LEAST look and see if it was possible. It is obstinance and pure anadulterated PRIDE that keeps them from understanding the Sabbath Truth.

We have probably done the whole Soul Sleep deal before, you would be aware that I believe in the immediate heaven. Sure some verses in the bible could be taken as the soul sleep view, I can also equally see verses which convince me of heaven.

I know of each verse that you would use to support your 'immediate' heaven and there are a MOUNTAIN of verses that are against it. We each must make a choice though. Weighed in the balances. The doctrine of immediate REWARD is found wanting.

In the Church of God Seventh Day I attended I had their Soul Sleep doctrine rammed down my throat constantly, and because I spoke against the idea I was discriminated against be it intentionally or not. So I can understand people publishing stuff against that idea also.

I had no idea that they taught soul sleep. That's cool. Sorry you got rammed. You really should consider it. What is the reason not to? Either way, you go to heaven. In your book, you must go against everything the Bible says about judgment and reward in order to get to an immidiate reward doctrine. All I had to do was read the Bible to see that we don't go straight to heaven. Think about that.

I am not keen on some of the personal abuse I cop from people over my views on Sabbath keeping, so I can Understand you feel hurt by statements about the SDA. Consider where people are comming from when they say this. I have found Pastor Chet to be a really top bloke. I am sure you could work it out.

Well, that remains to be seen. I haven't even seen him in here. Top bloke or not, I really would like to know why a man of God is bashing a fellowship of likeminded believers. It just doesn't make sense to me.

So anyway getting back to our thread, I would be on the understanding then that the SDA accept Spiritual Gifts. So do they pray for healing for the sick? Do you lay hands on people in prayer? Would your Pastor allow one of the Congregation to speak in tounges within your church?

Yes, we pray for the sick, and at times annoint. Laying on of hands, YES. We just did that a few weeks ago. THE WHOLE CHURCH was connected by hands to our Pastor, who was shipped out after Sabbath before last to Indiana.

Tongues? Like what the Charismatics do? NO WAY.

We have incidents of BIBLICAL tongues and interpretation, but I have yet to meet an SDA that mumbles.

Do the the SDB's still have the gifts?

God Bless

 

[Briguy]

3AM, you wrote:
""I can see your point about the actual speaker using a different language, but that wouldn't edify the body, because the majority was English speaking. So if my Pastor suddenly started speaking Spanish, then none of us would have been edified.""

Shame on you, You must have skimmed my post because this was answered. In your case here a person known to have the gift of tongue intepretation would interpret the message back to english so all could be edified.

Now of course it is irrevelant because both tongues and their intepretations ended around 70AD

In Christ,
Brian

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Shame on you, You must have skimmed my post because this was answered. In your case here a person known to have the gift of tongue intepretation would interpret the message back to english so all could be edified.

Now of course it is irrevelant because both tongues and their intepretations ended around 70AD

In Christ,
Brian

Shame on me? Must I be shamed?

I read your post.

You didn't respond to the rest. What was it? I see 2 gifts available in regards to tongues. The actual speaking and the interpretation. Do you think that when someone spoke in tongues that what they were saying was a divine revelation? Or do you think they were speaking what THEY were thinking, like their own sermon, and then supernaturally they were capable of speaking in another language? Also, when interpretation is mentioned it is mentioned as a separate gift. Is this TOO a reception of divine revelation, or is the person who speaks, also supposed to interpret? I see evidence that their would be ONE speaking in tongues, and another that was interpreting. Like at pentecost. They were speaking and the people understood in their own languages. What was that?

God Bless

 

[H.R.B.]

3AngelsMom,

I know of each verse that you would use to support your 'immediate' heaven and there are a MOUNTAIN of verses that are against it. We each must make a choice though. Weighed in the balances. The doctrine of immediate REWARD is found wanting.

Could you please give me those MOUNTAIN of verses that support soul sleep?

heidi

 

[BobRyan]

"I collected everything I could find (not an easy task) from books to tapes and articles on the internet. I intentionally tried to avoid Seventh day Adventist publications, because of my aversion to their heretical beliefs. Yet it is almost unavoidable when researching the Sabbath, because the preponderance of available materials are published by them.

I urge anyone who studies the issue for themselves not to be deceived by this sect-borderline cult."

He "sounds" nice enough. What's not to like?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[/quqote]Briguy
3AM, I am very glad the hispanic folks you spoke of got saved, Praise God. If they understood more then they should have it was a miracle of God, not the gift of tongues, which we know was a sign to unbelieving Isreal of their pending 70ad destruction. [/quote]

#1. 1Cor 14 says nothing about "unbelieving Israel".

#2. The NT does not teach that Spiritual Gifts are OTHER than "a miracle of God".

#3. 1Cor 14 says nothing about the pending destruction of Israel OR the need to get the Jews to come to grips with it OR any ministry in that regard. The message of that letter is ONLY eternal life - only the message of salvation to ALL men (not just to Jews).

Tongues is a "Sign to unbelievers" who are NOT of your ethnic group and who would NOT expect you to know/speak their language. IF Paul was speaking the language of the Jews (and he said "I thank God I speak in tongues MORE than you all") - it would not "impress a Jew".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by H.R.B.:
Could you please give me those MOUNTAIN of verses that support soul sleep?

heidi

Really? It's been a long time since someone asked me to show them the Soul Sleep truth.

John 11:11 (KJV)
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

John 5:28 (KJV)
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Romans 2:7 (KJV)
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Acts 2:34 (KJV)
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Job 19:25 (KJV)
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

'breath of life'-
05397 n@shamah {nesh-aw-maw'}
AV - breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24
1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing 1d) spirit (of man)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

'spirit'- (ruwach), breath, wind, blast.

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

'breath'- (nashama)-breath
'spirit'-(ruwach)- breath, wind, blast.

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

'breath'- (ruwach) breath, wind, blast (note same as spirit in last verse)
Note: In the day he dies HIS THOUGHTS perish
Perish- 06 'abad {aw-bad'}
AV - perish 98, destroy 62, lose 10, fail 2, surely 2, utterly 2, broken 1, destruction 1, escape 1, flee 1, spendeth 1, take 1, undone 1, void 1; 184

1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Note: the PRESENT TENSE of the verb HATH. That means NOT us, JUST HIM, HATH IMMORTALITY. That means RIGHT NOW He is the ONLY one who is immortal. HATH. RIGHT NOW.

Romans 2:7 (KJV)
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Let's see, this was a LONG time ago, and they were SEEKING immortality. Who was? Those who were ALREADY serving God. THE SAVED. So if they were ALREADY saved, why were they seeking immortality and eternal life? If they already have it why seek it?

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

At the last trump, THEN we will put on immortality, THEN we will be changed. None of us are already immortal, otherwise why would we need to change?
Note: the 8 instances of the word 'shall' those are all FUTURE tense.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Those who are 'dead', or not alive in their bodies anymore, DO NOT praise the Lord. Now, if you die, and you go straight to Heaven, don't you think you will be praising Him? This verse likens the dead people to those who are mute. The mute do not speak just as the dead do not speak.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

The dead do not remember anything, nor give thanks. If they were in heaven, don't you think they would remember and give thanks?

Job 19:25 (KJV)
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job, knew that worms will eat his body, and that in the last day he will be resurrected with a new body to see God.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

'soul' 05315 nephesh {neh'-fesh}
AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8....

This is the same 'soul' used in Genesis 2:7 when God made Adam a 'living soul' out of dirt and 'spirit' or breath as it is called there.

The SOUL shall die. DIE. Why is that a confusing term for some? If a bug dies what is it? DIRT. The same breath that makes you alive makes that bug alive, and when you die, you too return to DIRT.

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wage (payment) is death. But THOSE in Christ, do not pay the wage themselves, but rather THROUGH Jesus Christ, the debt was payed. DEATH.

2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

It is laid up, or put away, 'saved', and God 'shall' (future tense again) give it to us at THAT day. Which day? The day He appears.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

IF Jesus has the reward with Him, how could you already have it? (there's that shall again)

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

They KNOW nothing, and have no memory. They DO NOT HAVE their reward.

'For the living know that they shall die.'

Let's look at the first lie ever told to mankind:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

But what did God tell them?

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now let's compare those:

Ye shall not surely die -SATAN
thou shalt surely die. -GOD

Notice that Satan added just ONE word to God's and started every bit of this doctrine that states that you will go to heaven right after you die, because your 'spirit' is immortal.

That's all it takes. Just a little false to make the WHOLE thing a lie.

God ALONE HAS immortality.

Since God is the only One who has immortality, then man does not have the ability to live past death, without God raising him up.

When will that happen?

The Last Day.

Since we are all still, here, and I am typing the close of this post, we know that it is NOT the last day. And you and I are still mortal.

Was that a mountain?

God Bless

 

[Ben W]

ThreeAngelsMom, Seventh Day Baptists are Congregational hence whether or not people speak in tounges within the fellowship would be decided democratically within the fellowship.

Did we really have to turn a Spiritual Gifts discussion thread into a punch up over Soul Sleep?

What annoys me the most about this doctrine is that it has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation, yet it is pushed militantly in the SDA. It is probably the reason I do not go to the SDA. I feel that I have Scriptural proof of an immediate heaven. So I feel that I have the right to excersize my democratic freedom on this in the church.

But lets go with the flow and post some immediate heaven scriptural proof.

1. Enoch is in Heaven. Heb 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experiece death; he could not be found because God had taken him away.

2. Elijha is there also. `2Kings 2:11 "As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up into heaven in a Whirlwind.

3. Moses and Elijah are not asleep. Mat 17:3 "Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah"

4. Jesus told the thief that believed, Luke 23:43 I tell you the Truth, Today you will be with Me in Paradise. Paradise is what it says it is, check the Greek. Not only was Jesus without sin, but he reaffirms it here saying "I tell you the Truth" If Jesus said this is what happens then this is it. He is no liar.

5. People that are in "Soul Sleep" dont sleep walk. Mat 27:52-53 "The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus Ressurection appeared to many people.

There are plenty more, but have a go at those.

 

[Briguy]

3AM, I hope you know I was kidding when I said "shame on you". I should have put a smiley face next to it so it would be obvious. please forgive me if I offended you.

In your comment to me you touched on proper tongues but still miss it at the same time. The tongues speaker shares the message in a different language, always the language of someone present at the assembly. The interpreter inteprets that foreign language to the rest of the assembly. The interpretation is not done by the hearers. There is no indication that both gifts were given to one person. Paul said if an interpreter was not present then a tongue speaker should not speak. Hope that clears it up. Intepreting tongues was just like an intepreter today who helps people understand a speaker who speaks a different language.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Bobryan, In 1 Cor. 14 when Paul calls Tongues a sign he refers to Isaiah 28, which is a direct warning to Isreal. It warns of pending judgement. The point is that if the sign was warning to Isreal, they are the unbelievers that Paul was speaking about. Tongues were a miracle no doubt. If I started speaking Russian to a person from Russia and I never even thought about that language before, that would be a miracle. The miracle of tongues was the "sign". Paul said that he had the gift and used it more then his audience. He was making a heated point about tongues throughout the whole chapter. He was driving his points home.

In Love and truth,
Brian

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ben W:
[QB] ThreeAngelsMom, Seventh Day Baptists are Congregational hence whether or not people speak in tounges within the fellowship would be decided democratically within the fellowship.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. Does that mean that each and every congregation in your denomination holds a different set of beliefs based on what the congregation dictates?

Did we really have to turn a Spiritual Gifts discussion thread into a punch up over Soul Sleep?

No, but someone asked. So I felt it would be rude not to answer.

What annoys me the most about this doctrine is that it has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation, yet it is pushed militantly in the SDA. It is probably the reason I do not go to the SDA. I feel that I have Scriptural proof of an immediate heaven. So I feel that I have the right to excersize my democratic freedom on this in the church.

Well, actually it does have to do with salvation. The idea that the soul is immortal, gives people the liberty to develop doctrines such as purgatory. This doctrine makes people think that they can live however they want, because after death they will have a second chance, or better yet, their familys will have a chance to 'pray' or a better word would be 'pry' their way into heaven. It is also dangerous, because it is the basis for the everlasting, eternal, through the ceaseless ages, hell doctrine, that has turned more people away from God, than it has saved. So, no you don't have to believe it to be saved, but those who do receive it, are either scared into their service, or they are turned off by a cruel, and sadistic image of God. I wouldn't say that we are militant in the propigation of this doctrine, we just think it is important that people have the truth about God.

But lets go with the flow and post some immediate heaven scriptural proof.

Good plan!

1. Enoch is in Heaven. Heb 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experiece death; he could not be found because God had taken him away.

No argument. Enoch didn't die. He was translateed. So unless you get translated (which you very well may be if you live to see the 2nd Coming) we can rest assured, that you will die, and await the resurrection like everyone else.

2. Elijha is there also. `2Kings 2:11 "As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up into heaven in a Whirlwind.

Again, Elijah WAS and then he suddenly WAS NOT, which again means that he did not die. This has nothing to do with what happens to someone when they die.

3. Moses and Elijah are not asleep. Mat 17:3 "Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah"

Elijah, as just seen, was taken, and Moses did die, and God resurrected him. See Jude, he is quoting from a book called the Assumption of Moses. Moses didn't go to heaven when he died.

4. Jesus told the thief that believed, Luke 23:43 I tell you the Truth, Today you will be with Me in Paradise. Paradise is what it says it is, check the Greek. Not only was Jesus without sin, but he reaffirms it here saying "I tell you the Truth" If Jesus said this is what happens then this is it. He is no liar.

So then why call Him a liar? Did Jesus go to Paradise TODAY? (the day He said it) What did He say to Mary Magdalene at the tomb? He said "Do not CLING to me, for I HAVE NOT yet gone to my Father". Now, I don't know about your church, but we teach that the Father is INDEED in heaven. So if He HAD NOT gone to HIS Father, then He HAD NOT gone to heaven, releaving for ever any question as to WHEN the theif went to paradise. Jesus didn't say TODAY you will be with me in Paradise. There is no punctuation in the original. He said "I tell you TODAY (as in, He was telling the theif today), that you will be with me in paradise". The theif INDEED WILL be with Him in paradise, but not until Jesus comes for the living. WE will not prevent those who are asleep. THEY will rise first. THEN, the theif will be with Him.

5. People that are in "Soul Sleep" dont sleep walk. Mat 27:52-53 "The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus Ressurection appeared to many people.

Are you serious? What happened? THE TOMBS BROKE OPEN, and the bodies of the DEAD Saints were RAISED to life. Those people DID NOT go to heaven. They walked around Jerusalem. They were seen of many. They quite possibly continued to live until Jesus ascended. Or even beyond that, it isn't said. But regardless, don't you think that it is strange that if those people who were dead were raised to life, and yet we see not ONE single account of anyone talking to them about HEAVEN??? Don't you think that YOU would talk about heaven, if you had been there, and then you were resurrected?

There are plenty more, but have a go at those.

Where? Also, what do you do with all the verses that I posted?

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Briguy,

I wasn't offended. My response was in jest as well.

My instant gremlins don't work. SO all I can do is smile, wink, or frown.

I don't remember how to do the rest.

Ok, on the tongues thing. Do you think it is possible for there to be someone experiencing interpretation of tongues, without someone actually expressing a manefestation of tongues at that moment. Like what I was talking about. They were interpreting a language that they didn't know before, supernaturally.

The way you described it, is that what happened at Pentecost? Was there someone rambling off something and then someone else was interpreting what he was saying for the rest of the group? I have always thought that what happened at Pentecost was that the Apostles were speaking and the 'cloven tongues of fire' were translating the words that the Apostles were speaking into the ears of the interpreters. The Bible says there were people from EVERY nation under heaven there. Does that mean that the Apostles spoke in every language under heaven all at once? Is there any indication that the Apostles didn't know what they were saying? That is what I meant by 'divine revelation'. Were the Apostles telling the people something that THEY didn't think to say themselves?

God Bless

 

[H.R.B.]

No, but someone asked. So I felt it would be rude not to answer.

Thankyou for posting those verses.

heidi