SDA and Spiritual Gifts,

[3AngelsMom]

Heidi,

You're very welcome, if you have any questions let me know.

I promise not to be 'militant'

God Bless

 

[Ben W]

Suggesting that people who believe in an immediate heaven encourage a Catholic belief in Purgatory is an absolute nonesense.

I woiuld also let you know that I find it extremley offensive that you suggest that I am calling Jesus Christ a Liar. Look at what He said. "I tell you the truth, Today you will be with Me in Paradise". That is His words, go look at Paradise in the Greek, it means heaven".

I also think that you are wrong about Soul Sleep being a Salvation issue. That is Indoctrination from the SDA speaking there.

I am really dissapointed at the Attitude of the SDA to people who will not agree with all of their 28 Doctrines. Hence I can see why certain statements about the SDA are made on various sites. Some are quite untrue, however some critiscm is deserved.

I see the same attitude prevailing in certain IFB fellowships also. All it does is give me a bad taste for the denomination. I am happy to fellowship with brethren from the SDA, but I will not put up with being told this or that is a Salvation issue, when it clearly is not.

 

[BobRyan]

Briguy -
Bobryan, In 1 Cor. 14 when Paul calls Tongues a sign he refers to Isaiah 28, which is a direct warning to Isreal. It warns of pending judgement. The point is that if the sign was warning to Isreal, they are the unbelievers that Paul was speaking about. Tongues were a miracle no doubt. If I started speaking Russian to a person from Russia and I never even thought about that language before, that would be a miracle. The miracle of tongues was the "sign". Paul said that he had the gift and used it more then his audience. He was making a heated point about tongues throughout the whole chapter. He was driving his points home.[/b]

In 1Cor 14 we see that "Prophecy" is a "sign for believers". In Isaiah - the prophet is "Isaiah" and the People are "Israel".

In 1 Cor 14 if the one speaking in tongues does not speak clearly "he is considered a barbarian" by those who fill the place of the "ungifted".

Nothing is said about the "destruction of Jerusalem here" nor is anything said in Isaiah in the form "When you see people speaking in tongues then know that Jerusalem is about to be destroyed".

Instead of Peter saying that "This is what was spoken to you by Isaiah the prophet" to "explain" the tongues miracle - Peter states this "is the fulfillment of what was spoken by JOEL " - see Joel 2:16. There is no room for guessing in this case. The NT spells it out.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ben Look at what He said. "I tell you the truth, Today you will be with Me in Paradise". That is His words, go look at Paradise in the Greek, it means heaven".

There is no question that Paradise means "heaven".

In 2 Cor 12:1-4 we are told that it is in the "3rd heaven". In Revelation we find that the throne of God and the tree of life are in Paradise.

Absolutely no question - Paradise is in heaven - where God's throne is.

In Luke 23 the thief makes an explicit request "Remember me When you Come into your Kingdom" (recognizing the future coming of Christ as King - though dying now as Savior).

Christ's answer is direct
"Truly I say to you today you SHALL be WITH Me in paradise".

In John 20 Christ informs Mary that He "has not YET ascended to the Father" - on the 3rd day after the crucifixion - Sunday (the first day of the week).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ben W]

Yet Bob you leave out the Comma after the word Truth?

All of my versions of the bible have a comma included here. This is after the study of theologians scince the middle centuries. So it is important to keep punctuation. If we changed the punctuation here, we would also have to change it in other places to be consistant. Hence many verses would not make any sense.

 

[BobRyan]

Ben Yet Bob you leave out the Comma after the word Truth?

That is true - I left it out - and so did Luke.

Ben
All of my versions of the bible have a comma included here. This is after the study of theologians scince the middle centuries. So it is important to keep punctuation. If we changed the punctuation here, we would also have to change it in other places to be consistant. Hence many verses would not make any sense.

Actually - it appears that the verse makes perfect sense when you leave the punctuation that Luke placed in the text initially. It even works in English grammar asis.

I agree that adding punctuation can force the choice between 2 or 3 possible alternatives. However, there is nothing in the text regarding Greek grammar that would "dictate the comma". The reason it is added has nothing to do with Greek syntax or grammar.

And the point in my post not "only" applies the punctuation that Luke gave the text - it also applies the "context" of the request "Remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom".

Christ's answer was in direct response to that question in context.
"Truly I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in Paradise".

And in John 20, He makes it clear that even by Sunday - He had not been to Heaven - to where the throne of God is - which scripture tells us is in Paradise.

(Recall: Rev 2 tells us that Paradise is where the tree of life is - and Rev 22 tells us that the Tree of Life is where God's throne is. 2Cor 12 tells us that Paradise is in the 3rd heaven)


In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ben W:
[QB] Suggesting that people who believe in an immediate heaven encourage a Catholic belief in Purgatory is an absolute nonesense.

No it isn't. If they didn't think they went SOMEWHERE at death, then Purgatory would be impossible. It is the foundation of purgatory.

I would also let you know that I find it extremley offensive that you suggest that I am calling Jesus Christ a Liar.

Then don't do it! You are INSISTING that when Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him TODAY, and by that you are saying that Jesus lied when He told Mary M. ON THE THIRD DAY, that He HAD NOT gone to Heaven yet.

I also think that you are wrong about Soul Sleep being a Salvation issue. That is Indoctrination from the SDA speaking there.

Hahahahahahaha. That is hilarious! Uh, I believed this before I became an SDA. The reason it would be a Salvation issue doesn't apply to YOU, because YOU are already saved, but to those who are NOT, it is. The false doctrines of purgatory, and immediate reward (good or bad) have caused COUNTLESS rejections of Christ. IT IS effecting Salvation. I did not say you HAVE to believe in Soul Sleep to be saved. That is rediculous, and I am RARELY rediculous.

I am really dissapointed at the Attitude of the SDA to people who will not agree with all of their 28 Doctrines.

So am I. You're barking up the wrong tree here. I have NEVER made ANY statements that would elude to my believing that people of other denominations and beliefs are 'less' saved than me.

Hence I can see why certain statements about the SDA are made on various sites. Some are quite untrue, however some critiscm is deserved.

Which is true for all Christians. It is expected, we aren't perfect.

I see the same attitude prevailing in certain IFB fellowships also.

NO, what you see in IFB is exclusivism, which NOT one single SDA that I have ever met, or spoke to, IS. We believe that God's people are in EVERY denomination.

All it does is give me a bad taste for the denomination. I am happy to fellowship with brethren from the SDA, but I will not put up with being told this or that is a Salvation issue, when it clearly is not.

Well, perhaps you should make sure you understand what is being put forth, before passing such a judgment. It is NOT necessary for Salvation to believe ANYTHING about 'what happens when you die'. HOWEVER, it is effecting the effectiveness of the Gospel.

It is detrimental to the Kingdom of God, and the goal of the Gospel for people to be 'scared' into going to church through hell doctrine, and duped into church by easy believism.

Both are half truths.

Both cause the church to suffer.

Both need to be put to an end.

The Truth is in the "Mountain" I posted.

Did you even read it?

God Bless

 

[Briguy]

3AM, writes: "Ok, on the tongues thing. Do you think it is possible for there to be someone experiencing interpretation of tongues, without someone actually expressing a manefestation of tongues at that moment""

No, the Bible is clear that Toungues are actual languages. Actual languages need to be interpreted for the edification of the "body" No interpretion for all would go agaist what spiritual gifts are for.

At Pentecost, the miracle was that each apostle spoke to a group of people who were seperated by their common languages. Each apostle spoke to a group in the native language they spoke. In the USA we basically have one language. Back in the mid-east then and now actually there are many languages and variations of languages in a small area. The gift was a "sign". It was a miracle that pointed to God's judgement and the destruction of Isreal, which then happened in 70AD. Tongues were an active gift then for some 35 years and that is why Paul mentions them and Luke reported them. It was a very REAL gift but one that ended after it served its purpose. 1 Cor. 13 tells us tongues will end on their own and they did.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[3AngelsMom]

Brian,

Just answer this:

Does the person 'speaking in tongues' have to be speaking in an unknown to them language a DIVINELY revealed statement, or could they KNOW what they are saying, and what they want to say, and as they 'think' in their own language they are supernaturally able to 'speak' in the other?

God Bless

 

[BobRyan]

Tongues are "a sign to UNbelievers" just as prophecy is a "sign" to Believers - according to 1Cor 14.

These signs do say to all UNbelievers in corinth (the unbeliving pagans, greeks and jews) that they are all going to be destroyed in 70AD.

These signs did not say to "believers" in Corinth that THEY would be "destroyed in 70 A.D.".

In fact - the destruction of 70.A.D is not mentioned at all in 1Cor 14.

Instead it says that when one prays or speaks in a tongue he "Edifies the Church". It was "for instruction". And one could pray, teach or sing in a tongue according to the text.

IF there was no one to interpret that message in tongues - then the one who was giving it was to keep silent. Anyone else who had a message to give in a certain tongue was obliged to wait for their turn.

In Acts 2 - we "see the message" and it was "not about destroying the UNbelievers in 70.A.D.".

In Acts 10 we "see" that UNBELIEVERS are given the gift of tongues - when they believe - EVEN though the only other people in the place "other" than the unbelievers - was Peter and company.

Fascinating how the Bible forms a harmonious consistent picture here.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Briguy]

3AM, you are trying to make tongues something they are not. The person speaking in tongues would give a short or long message the same way a preacher does in a church today. It would be as Divine of a message as our preachers deliver at our worship services now. Yes, the tongues sayer would know what he was saying just like you and I would he we were fluent in Spanish. The gift of tongues was being fluent in any language that a person needed to be fluent in, depending who the audience was. It is that easy and that is why it is a miracle.

Bob writes: ""In fact - the destruction of 70.A.D is not mentioned at all in 1Cor 14.""

1 Cor. was written 15-20 years before 70AD
it would not have the date. When God revealed "things to come" he seldom, maybe never actually(can't think of any) attached dates.
Bob there is a reason that Paul picks that very passage of Isaiah. It does speak of a destruction and a judgement. Signs, like a road sign tell us of whats ahead and when that something comes they go away (like the signs of a certain highway coming end when you reach the highway. Prophecy being a sign to believers is different. That "sign" pointed to the fact that now God's grace had been poured out to all peoples in all places who believe. The sign will keep pointing to that fact until the Kingdom age. Prophecy, being the proclaiming of the good news, is what is the fundamental thing here. Prophecy as interpreted by some as some kind of future telling is not the "sign" to believers. God "speaking" to all people is the sign. Hope that clairlfies things some.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[3AngelsMom]

Brian,

I am not 'trying' to make it anything!

I SAW people come to Christ, who DID NOT speak OR understand English, before they came into our church, and they still don't. Except for when my pastor is preaching. This miracle takes place each week for them. They listen to him preach and can UNDERSTAND him until he leaves the pulpit. Only those who speak spanish can communicate with them. They are migrant farm workers, and they have only been in the US for about 3 months NOW. When they first started coming to our church, they just came in and sat down like they belonged there! The whole family came to Christ, and was baptized. There are other cases of this, if you would like me to relate them.

The day of Pentecost experience states that there were cloven tongues of fire that SAT on the listeners, and the question they ask of one another, tells me that they were experiencing something similar to the Mexican family,

"How is it that we HEAR them speak in our own language?"

Now, I asked this before, but you didn't answer:

Were the Aposltes preaching in EVERY language known to man ALL AT ONCE?

Because the Bible says that there were people of EVERY TONGUE and Nation present there. EVERY.

How many languages were there back then? Could we modestly assume 200? If there WERE 200 apostles, and they WERE ALL speaking, then each of them would have to have been speaking a different language, and there would have been mass confusion.

BUT, if the Apostles spoke, and the people were listening, and the 'tongues' that sat on them were translating the words into the ears of the hearer, then there would be NO confusion, and many would be saved.

Which is WHAT happened.

Look at it again.

2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8. And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13. Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

They HEARD.

This 'miracle' that has taken place all over the world RECENTLY through the power of the Holy Spirit, that edifies the CHURCH BODY, by ADDING TO IT, IS what the Apostles were experiencing.

The Apostles KNEW what they were saying.

Why? They were speaking plainly. THE SPIRIT translated it into the ears of the hearers.

Unless of course you want to submit that the Medes who were there were being edified by an Apostle speaking in an Arabian dialect?

God Bless

 

[Briguy]

3AM writes:

"I SAW people come to Christ, who DID NOT speak OR understand English, before they came into our church, and they still don't. Except for when my pastor is preaching. This miracle takes place each week for them. "'

This is a miracle, not the gift of tongues. If theyunderstand English only when your pastor is speaking then it really is a miracle, not the gift of tongues. I will say again spiritual gifts, as given by the Holy Spirit, are give to equip the assemblies. They are in believers and part of believers and used at the will of the believer. God gives the gift and we use it. Think about a T.V. If I give you a T.V. I will not call you and tell you when to turn it on and what to watch, you will be fully in control of the T.V. Such it is with the spiritual gifts given by God.

Your question about the languages. Well, the words used in Acts means languages, real languages that were being spoken. There were 120 people that received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost and there would not have been 120 different languages in that one place. The Bible lists 16 or 17 I think so even if we double that, which is a stretch for one region to have at one time, there were plenty of people who could have had the gift of tongues to speak in each language. Remember only a believer is give a spiritual gift, after they place their faith in Christ, therfore a unsaved hearer could not have the gift of tongue interpretation. Finally, if the intpretation gift is interpreting actual languages then 1 Cor. 14 makes sense in terms of the intepreter being present in the assembly when tongues were used. Think about that once. In the assembly, to know if an interpreter was present you had to know exactly who had the gift beforehand or you wouldn't know to keep silent, if you wanted to use your tongue gift for some visitors or usual attenders who spoke a different language. Sorry if i rambled, the ideas in my head smoetimes don't come out in an orderly fashion.

In Christian love,
Brian

 

[3AngelsMom]

Brian,

I am going to have to say that there is a REALLY good chance that you are wrong on this one. I am not trying to submit that I am right, because I really don't know, but based on the text, the people who were listening, were not 'pricked' in their hearts and converted until AFTER the 'tongues' experience. BEFORE they were converted they UNDERSTOOD 'in their own language' the 'wonderful works of God'.

I don't even see a mention of someone 'interpreting' what the Apostles were saying 'for the lost'. All I see is the Apostles speaking, and the hearers understanding in their own language.

BEFORE they were converted.

What they heard and saw was a sign to them, and when Peter preached, they were convicted by the Holy Spirit, and were converted.

That doesn't sound like what you are describing.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see what you are describing in that text.

God Bless

 

[Briguy]

Hi 3AM, when the apostles and others with the tongues gift witnessed to those people in their own language many responded. I was pricked in the heart before I responded to the gospel. The text does not describe any interpretation but remember the "body" was just being formed at that point. By 50AD Paul needed to lay the law down on how and when tongues were used because there was so mauch tongue abuse going on, much of which was from people who didn't even have the gift. Paul made clear what had been confusing in the first 18 years or so of the "body", in particular in certain assemblies that were really messing up(Corinth) in this case.

The gift of tongues is the same in Acts as it was in 1 Cor. The church was growing since Pentecost and again Paul layed down the framework for what was proper when assemblies were gathered. He saw gift abuse and tried to clear things up.

Clear as mud?? Sorry I can't do a better job at describing tongues and their use better, maybe I will figure out a better way to write what I am thinking later. Take care

In Christ,
Brian

 

[3AngelsMom]

Brian,

Did you say you were 40? You look like you are my age!

Get that thinking cap going, and give me some answers dagnabit!!!!

You sure are a young looking 40 year old.

God Bless

 

[Briguy]

Hi 3AM, yes I am 40 and starting to feel it

Actually I was 40 last August and sometimes I can hardly believe it

Anyway, On spiritual gifts: What is your reaction when I say that WE control our spiritual gifts, not God (God controls the world but I am saying that he gives us free will to use our gifts when WE choose). Does that make sense? or does that leave you thinking I am really kind of out there

) I want to start with that and go from there. Thanks much and also thank you for your good attitude and-------- especially thank you for thinking I look less the 40, us old guys need to feel good too once in a while.

Btw, I am way to smart to ask your age

In Christian love,
Brian

 

[BobRyan]

Brian - that works for "Tongues" according to 1Cor 14 but not for prophecy.

In the case of Prophecy - if one receives a prophecy EVEN though another prophet is standing and speaking - the speaker is to stop-mid-message and let the one who just "received" a prophecy stand and speak. In other words - God is in abolute control of the order, timing and manifestation of that particular gift.

But for tongues - it appears to be fully under the control of the one with the gift. At least when you read 1Cor 14 without looking for Israel to be destroyed over the tongues thing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Brian --
By 50AD Paul needed to lay the law down on how and when tongues were used because there was so mauch tongue abuse going on, much of which was from people who didn't even have the gift.

The first part of that works - but that last part does not work in 1Cor 14.

In 1Cor 14 Paul is not addressing those "without the gift of tongues" when he says "each of you has a tongue". He is addressing the wrong exercise of that gift - but he never questions EVEN in the case of using it incorrectly - whether the person actually "has" the gift.

Brian -
The gift of tongues is the same in Acts as it was in 1 Cor. The church was growing since Pentecost and again Paul layed down the framework for what was proper when assemblies were gathered. He saw gift abuse and tried to clear things up.

Agreed.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[AITB]

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and [one] sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 "And how [is] [it] [that] we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 "Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 "Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."

This is how I understand what is described above. The miracle here is that the apostles spoke in other languages which they had not learned.

The people listening already spoke and understood those other languages, therefore they could naturally understand the apostles. They were amazed the apostles were speaking their own languages - they knew that had to be a miracle, that the apostles could do so - and that was a sign to them.

Hearing a message spoken in a language you do not know and yet understanding it - maybe even to the point you think it's in your language when it isn't - that would not be called the gift of tongues; that would be a supernatural gift of interpretation.

Helen/AITB