SDA "failed" Prophesy

Did he make a claim to a vision that told him when the Second coming would be as Ellen White did?

We believe ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God.

We believe Paul was INSPIRED when he predicted the future events in 1Thess 4.

We believe that when Paul said "WE who are alive and remain" that proper exegesis demands his readers think of his contemporaries.

Both Paul and Ellen White taught that Christ's coming could be soon. They were not denying the role of end-time judgments such as Rev 16 describes. But they considered that the end could happen in their lifetimes - and they anxiously awaited Christ's return (Phil 3).

Their inspired statements on the "soon" return of Christ and expectation in their lifetime to see it - can not be bent into a "specific date predicted for Christ's return" in either case.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I was not ignoring the fact that in the inspired statements of Paul the Holy Spirit directed him to state "WE who ARE alive AND remain will be caught up together WITH THEM in the air".

I was not ignoring the fact that such an inspired statement spoke to the people living at that time.

I was not ignoring the fact - that once that is observed - we can expect that SAME form of expectation in all ages afterwards.

However in Ellen White's case - she has an additional issue - which is the one of Moses saying that Israel was going to Caanan when in fact due to rebellion - they were delayed by 40 years.

Ellen White stated the same thing. That God always presents His return as "soon" with DATE given (even though the attack here is "supposed" to be in the form of finding "date given").

And also that just as there was delay for Israel - there has been delay since the early 1800's.

Spinning that into "four specific dates predicted" is your job - not mine.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I must secretly be Catholic...these are too long for me to follow any of it...I need someone to tell me what it all means!!!!!

Bro. Bob,
I will say, in all appearances the language does lend itself to 'failed prophecy.' But I did say by all appearances.

As a Baptist, of course my first issue is with Mrs. White leading the church. If we could get past that then maybe I could see the significance of her prophecies??? But that is not the purpose of this thread either.

So to get on topic, and add my own meaningless, though lengthy thread to this discussion, I do note Mrs. White did not specify a date. However, her language did carry with it a perceived weight as to say she was speaking of a conference in the present tense.

That would be my issue, if I could understand the issue that is.

Bro. Dallas

 

Dallas -

The points are:

#1. Four specific dates were specifically stated in the accusation opening this thread. But not a single one was actually "produced" when the "details" were examined.

#2. The ONLY thing that "stuck" was the claim that she spoke as if the 2nd coming were to be IN HER lifetime.

#3. The point was made that Paul did the same thing AND that this was the view the Holy Spirit gave to Paul, Peter and John. But in Paul's case the statement is made "WE who ARE ALiVE and REMAIN" speaking by inspiration of the rapture. This is clearly (in the exegetical sense) a refernce to HIS contemporaries and they would take it so - as they read the letter.

#4. Moses ALSO stated that Israel was to go directly to Caanan when speaking to those in Egypt. But in fact - they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. Ellen White's statements follow that same pattern after 1880. She claimed then that the same kind of delay had happened to the Christian church in the 1800's.

Summary -

IF the charge is that no one inspired by the Holy Spirit should give a message to the effect that "WE who are ALIVE AND REMAIN" will be around for the 2nd coming - (as if CONTEMPORARIES would be there) then our problem is huge - and goes far beyond Ellen White. Trying to "get at Ellen White" through that door is foolish and the last resort of the truly desperate or the "ill informed" at the very least.

There are much better ones. Doctrine for example.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I can't believe this is "supposed" to be so hard to understand - even for our RC bretheren.

Neither did Paul

Neither was Paul "WE WHO ARE alive and remain" -- NOT "THOSE in the future who WILL be alive".

It could not BE any more specific to HIS readers.

Paul ALSO was writing by divine inspiration. 1Thess 4 speaking of the FUTURE rapture was NOT just "Paul giving his opinion" - ALL scripture is inspired by God. Paul was writing under divine inspiration.

The "WE WHO ARE ALIVE" that Paul was addressing - lived 2000 years ago.

Paul said that SOME of them had died and that the those who REMAINED would be joined WITH THEM in the air - as the living taken up to heaven along with those who fell ASLEEP - the "DEAD" in Christ.

This is so easy - it must be embarassing to pretend not to get it after a while.

And as already noted - when writing later about this (1890's - ) Ellen White noted that the it was ALREADY later later than she expected (let alone today) and that the delay for modern Christians was in the same form as the delay for Israel mentioned in Hebrews 3.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thanks Bro. BobRyan,
I do know more now than I did. I admit, I have not studied the SDA. I know a Catholic converted to Missionary Baptist (2 actually) who have seen the light of the Gospel of the Grace of God in the face of Jesus Christ be shed abroad in their hearts---this one former catholic's grandmother is SDA and he has told me somethings about what they believe. He has never told me anything about the Catholic. He is several years younger than myself. He told me he spends much of his time witnessing to other Catholics. The second convert is closer to my age and we have talked more about the doctrines. I admit I don't know all there is of which they teach, but since man makes their doctrine, they can't ever be sure they know it all either, can they.

Thanks for posting the information. I think alot of folks hurt their claims in the 1800's. But I would agree with you, I would never have a woman as leader in a church any way, so the failed prophecies would not be an issue, I wouldn't get that far.

Thanks for clearing things up.

Bro. Dallas

 

A much more consistent way to deal with the subject of Ellen White when talking to an Adventist is to point out that according to the Bible (and according to Adventist doctrine) One of the tests of a prophet is doctrinal purity when it comes to messages that are supposed to be from God.

In other words - God is never wrong about His doctrine - so if you are Methodist and you believe in infant baptism - and Ellen White says that only believer's baptism is legit and that it must be full water baptism - and that God is giving that message - then you must reject her as a false prophet since her message contradicts what you believe the Bible to teach.

And if you are Catholic and you find the Bible to support prayers to the dead but Ellen White claims God sees this as a form of necromancy -- and she claims God gave that message - then again - you must conclude she has given a message opposed to scripture and reject her as being a false prophet.

So pick your doctrine - that you are sure is supported by scripture - if she claims to have some message in violation of that teaching - she has to be viewed as a false prophet by you.

This is a far more consistent way to solve the problem and all can agree to it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Not only do I believe women are not permitted to teach adult men in the church, I also believe all prophecy ended with the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I believe both these are valid disputes of Mrs. White.

Bro. Dallas

 

This is very true bro. Dallas, The bible strongly forbid women to have leadership in the church. This is very plain from the Holy Scriptures.

 

T2U said --
You seem confused. The opening post to this thread said nothing of the kind. Details, Bob, detail.

I believe that was a quote from a previous charge that "Ellen White predictedfour specific dates for the 2nd coming". And obviously - even this quote was not a "specific date".

You know, like Paul.

Obviously not. The text shows the letter written specifically TO the Thessalonians who had the SPECIFIC problem of concern over their own dead - those who had at that time fallen asleep - the "Dead in Christ".

But then - that would be exegesis.

Thess said --

Your reference to the 1800's hint of a previous failed prophesy. Could you give a little more detail?

No - it says nothing about a failed prophecy. Rather it speaks to the SAME point. Both Paul and Ellen White expected the soon return of Christ and BOTH spoke under divine inspiration to that point.

This could not be any simpler.

Turning a blind eye to that problem does not form a compelling response. Please actually deal with the point.

Indeed WE who ARE alive - spoken under divine inspiration (not merely as a personnal opinion) IS the point.

Again - turning a blind eye to that fact of Divine inspiration AS IF Paul is speaking of future events BUT NOT at God's direction - is simply to be "ill-informed".

Exegesis STARTS with the context of the original readers and the meaning conveyed. The "hope" that you have that exegesis could be "bent for them" to mean "OTHERS who will be alive 2000 years from now" is just silly.

Your defense demands it - but you have no hope of making it work.

Details, details.

 

As much as you are "trying not to understand the text" - it is quite simple.


1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
...

Paul is "clearly" writing to his comtemporaries. They ARE the primary first-order audience.

T2U is "hoping" this in no way shows Paul actually writing TO those he is writing TO??!!

And of course T2U "needs" that to be the case.

Hmmm - ALL Christians in ALL ages "taught by God"??

Well - the FIRST and PRIMARY audience would conclude this was true for THEM.

And so also do we accept it for US (thought I suppose there are some RC members that do not).

Again -- the text makes it abundantly clear - Paul is speaking first and foremost to his contemporaries. Those who "ARE in Macedonia" at the time of the writing of the letter.

For this WE SAY to YOU... WE WHO are alive and REMAIN..

It is so hard to "miss this" that it is unbelievable any "could".


16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Paul clearly - obviously - unquestionably expected the Lord's return in his lifetime AND the lifetime of those who read his letters.

There is no "thousands of years from now, when we are all dead and gone... THOSE who are alive AT THAT time will be caught up together with US in the air"....

As much as the RC position on this thread "needs that to be in the text" -- it just isn't there.

Paul EXPECTED the soon return of Christ..


Here again in 1Cor 7 "THE TIME has ALREADY come"...

Paul clearly, obviously expected the soon return of Christ and pointed to the indwelling ministry of the Spirit of God as his authority.

PAul WAS writing to the Thessalonians EVEN though T2U "needs" that not to be true.

"WE WHO ARE ALIVE" refers to the same WE to the same GROUP Paul IS writing to.

Impossible to miss "even" if your attack "needs it not to be true anyway".

In fact -- check with ALL the NT authors - they ALL expected the soon return of Christ - as the Holy Spirit continually made that presentation to them.

As Peter stated "IT is TIME for judgement to begin with the house of God".

John adds "WE KNOW we are in the last days" in 1John 2.

The testimony of each of the NT authors is consistent - and in perfect harmony with the immenent soon return of Christ. The message of the NT church - beyond question.

In Christ,

Bob

 

These is a futile thread. Of course all prophecy is going to fail. Prophecy ended with the Apostle John.

Bro. Dallas