SDA Hypocrisy?

[Claudia_T]

I was going back and reading one of the first posts on here about Sabbatarians.

I believe in keeping the Sabbath like Jesus kept it. I think that the Pharisees were loading it down with exactions and turning it into something grevious and almost impossible to keep.

But Jesus came and showed them how to really keep the Sabbath Holy.

Jesus was in the synagogue every Sabbath. Jesus healed people on the Sabbath. And He said "which one of you convicteth Me of sin?" ...meaning that He did not sin in the way He kept the Sabbath. He also said "I have kept My Father's commandments".

For me, Friday is "Preparation Day"... the day to do all your usual stuff to get prepared for Sabbath which is Friday evening.

Clean up the house, cook all your food for the next day, some of your favorite recipes.. since Sabbath is a special day.

And on Sabbath you dont do any work, you spend he day helping people, reflecting on God and His creation, reading the Bible... going out for walks in Nature, communing with God.

There are none of the rigorous exactions that the Pharisees put upon people.

Its nice to be able to just set aside all your usual work related stuff and spend the day with God. It re-charges you and gives you time to reflect upon the idea that God is your Creator.

I just really dont understand why people have such an apparent aversion to it.

I guess they misunderstand what we do on Sabbath or something.


The Sabbath isnt something I feel like I "have" to keep, I look forward to the Sabbath, its my favorite day of the week.

Claudia

 

[SpyHunter]

I do not have an aversion to spending a day with God. I spend every day with God. I literally pray all the time. I ask God what He thinks about things. I ask Him to show me His perspectives. I ask Him to bring correction to me, personally. But most importantly, I love on Him because He never fails to love on me.

How do I do this every moment of the day? Well, it's not because I'm better than anyone. I've just come to the place of devotion, where I do what I call "holding hands with God." When I'm out and about with my fiancee, there are many times where friends and family interrupt our time together, and where personal business often takes precedence in the actual activity. But throughout it all, my mind is on my beloved. It's not a "stop-and-go" thing; it is a continual way of life, where if you love someone, then no matter what goes on around you then you are always focused on them.

Now, there are times where God and I are alone, just like I prefer to be alone with my fiancee. In all of this, I am not saying, "How dare you observe the Hebrew Sabbath day?!" Go for it. My only issue is the compulsion of it upon others. If they do not feel the desire or conviction to do this, then it will not benefit them but enslave them. This is why the Pharisees wound up the way they did-- they were slaves to a law they did not understand because they were walking in the flesh, and so they corrupted that law.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
4:2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4:4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."
4:5 And again in this passage he said, "They shall not enter my rest."
4:6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
4:7 again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.
4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

The matter of disobedience is not in observing a particular day; it is a matter of refusing to rest. Those who refused to enter God's rest back "then" no longer had the opportunity to enter it. God swore in His anger they would not. So the writer of Hebrews urgently pleads with those who would return to legalism to enter His rest. To cease the strife and effort of religious works before God and to enter the fullness of the Sabbath, which is the person and work of Jesus Christ. It is by this I say Jesus is our Sabbath, and we ought to partake of Him and the inheritance of God every day.
Should you choose to highlight a specific day to emphasize this, then again, I support you. Just do it for the right reason, and do not force another through Scripture (would twist it in doing so) to do the same.

Blessings,
SpyHunter

 

[Bible-boy]

This thread is being closed for moderator review regarding violation of the BB policy against posting copyrighted material.

 

[Bible-boy]

I am re-opening this thread with the warning for you all not to post giant long direct quotations of other people's works. If it happens again the posts will be deleted without question.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Bump

I felt this thread was important enough to bring back up...

We have two SDA Apologists on the Board who are trying to Bring Christians back under the Law...

As I am tired of butting heads with them I am making a concerted effort not to respond to their posts any longer...

I feel that any response is futile as they will twist the answers and twist scripture to make the SDA answer 'sound' correct...

In fact they are trying to make the case that the Law is the Gospel, or at least an integral part of the Gospel...

My response is this:

There is only one Gospel... It does not require the Law

The Letter (Law) Kills and can not bring life.. This is _NOT_ Good news... It is _NOT_ the Gospel...

The Spirit gives Life through the Shed Blood of Christ Jesus... This _IS_ Good News. This _IS_ the Gospel...

There is only one reason to teach such a thing...

Galatians 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

As Peter said talking about Paul's Writings

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

As they say in politics if you tell a big enough lie long enough it will be believed...

SMM

 

[Claudia_T]

It is very easy to misunderstand the purpose or "the end" of the Gospel.

Rom:8:4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death ; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


You have to be willing to "die" and allow the Spirit to fulfill THE LAW (that dreaded Law) in you


Those who understand the Gospel realize the Law and the Gospel are not "at war" with each other. The Law points us to the Gospel and the Gospel points us to the fulfilling of the Law.

Wesley declared the perfect harmony of the law and the gospel "There is, therefore, the closest connection that can be conceived, between the law and the gospel. On the one hand, the law continually makes way for and points us to, the gospel; on the other, the gospel continually leads us to a more exact fulfilling of the law. The law, for instance, requires us to love God, to love our neighbor, to be meek, humble, or holy. We feel that we are not sufficient for these things; yea, that `with man this is impossible;' but we see a promise of God to give us that love, and to make us humble, meek, and holy; we lay hold of this gospel, of these glad tidings; it is done to us according to our faith; and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, 'through faith which is in Christ Jesus."


Now let God's Word tell you what is "the everlasting gospel" ....

Revelation 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God , and the faith of Jesus.


Claudia

[ May 12, 2006, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Claudia_T]

...anyway, thats the so-called "big lie" that the SDA Church teaches.... that Mike is fighting against.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
I do find it slightly odd that with all the other Christian denominations out there that also believe in keeping the 10 Commandments, you and nate seem to be stuck on the Seventh Day Adventists.

But how many of those other Christian denominations restrict their members from eating pork? Or Buffalo?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:

We have two SDA Apologists on the Board who are trying to Bring Christians back under the Law...

As I am tired of butting heads with them I am making a concerted effort not to respond to their posts any longer...

Hey! What a great way to achieve that goal!

Outstanding.

Looking to limit your responders to just the "me too" group? Or did you actually think that "mean old SDAs are the only people on this board who support God's Ten Commandments".

Honestly SMM sometimes it is so obvious that you are just not paying attention.

My response is this:

There is only one Gospel... It does not require the Law

The Letter (Law) Kills and can not bring life.. This is _NOT_ Good news... It is _NOT_ the Gospel...

The Spirit gives Life through the Shed Blood of Christ Jesus... This _IS_ Good News. This _IS_ the Gospel...

Which is how Abrahm was saved.

which is how David was saved.

Which is how Isaiah was saved.

ONE Gospel in ALL ages!

Get it?

There is only one reason to teach such a thing...

Indeed -- because (as has been repeatedly pointed out) CHRIST said "IF you Love Me KEEP my Commandments".

Actually I have a large post on these Bible texts that you "needed" to gloss over.

Coming up.

Or do you count posting of the "inconvenient scriptures" -- "lies being repeated"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The pre-cross Commandments of Christ the Creator were to be kept by Christ’s followers.

John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”

These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.

But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?

Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.

Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --

Romans 3:31 “Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God”

So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same

John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)

Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?

Matt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s

I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".

Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.

Is it any wonder that Paul writes

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31

And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".

God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".

Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)

==================================================

But some have argued that these saints under persecution keeping God’s commandments are a select few – and not really the larger group – of all Christians – in God’s planning. Is that true?

Isaiah 66 makes it clear regarding the “New Heavens and New Earth” also identified in Rev 20 -- “From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to Worship”

How can Christ the Creator call for ALL mankind to honor Sabbath as a day of Worship like that in the New Earth? Surely the Sabbath will NOT be for all mankind since in fact it WAS only for the Jews – correct?

Christ the Creator addresses the point head-on

“The Sabbath WAS MADE for Mankind” Mark 2:27

From the very “making” of Christ the Creator’s Holy Day – it was “made for Mankind”

Ok – so “when did Christ the Creator MAKE it?”

Notice - Christ the Creator gave mankind the 7-day week in Gen 2:3. For it was ” Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made”. A 7-day week - not a 6-day week for mankind. Christ the Creator makes his holy 7th day memorial of His creative action in making mankind – “for mankind” when he MAKES it “holy” – sanctified in Gen 2:3 before the fall of mankind.

When God speaks directly to His people in Exodus 20 and summarizes that same Gen 1-2:3 event notice what Christ the Creator says of His own Holy day – Made Holy at HIS making of this planet and life on this planet – and mankind.

Exodus 20:8-11 summary of the Creation week "event" shows it to have been made holy, sanctified and blessed by virtue of God’s own act of resting – that “alone” is given as the basis for the command. The commandment is in the format “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy…For in Six days God…. Therefore He Blessed, sanctified and made holy the Seventh day”.

Here it is in full as – God framed it at Sinai speaking directly to the People of God, He said

Exodus 20:
8 ""Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed The Sabbath day and made it holy.

</font>[/QUOTE]These are the texts that SMM is trying to avoid - so I thought I would include them here.

 

[BobRyan]

BTW - fellow posters. SMM does raise at least one good question. How in the world is he getting the idea that SDAs are the only ones who choose to Honor God's Commandments??

I don't see evidence for that on the POLLs provided here on the Ten Commandments or on Sabbath.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Yes, one would certainly get the idea from his posts that we are the only ones who advocate keeping the commandments.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by nate:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Claudia_T:
I do find it slightly odd that with all the other Christian denominations out there that also believe in keeping the 10 Commandments, you and nate seem to be stuck on the Seventh Day Adventists.

But how many of those other Christian denominations restrict their members from eating pork? Or Buffalo? </font>[/QUOTE]...and rats, bats and buzzards too


Those mean ole Seventh Day Adventists. How could they be so insensitive?

 

[DeclareHim]

Well I love my sausage,bacon,ham,porkrinds(yes I'm from the south originally)country salt cured ham. Anyway you keep pickin and choosin which levitical laws you are to obey.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by DeclareHim:
Well I love my sausage,bacon,ham,porkrinds(yes I'm from the south originally)country salt cured ham. Anyway you keep pickin and choosin which levitical laws you are to obey.

Sounds Delicious! SMM

 

[DeclareHim]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DeclareHim:
Well I love my sausage,bacon,ham,porkrinds(yes I'm from the south originally)country salt cured ham. Anyway you keep pickin and choosin which levitical laws you are to obey.

Sounds Delicious! SMM </font>[/QUOTE]I'm from Pickens, SC actually born in Easley though. So I'm more of an upstate guy. Boiled Peanuts I'm leaving in 2 weeks and heading back for a 6 week vacation.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Wow!

I commute daily to Columbia for work...

Probably too far to meet for lunch?

I frequent the Wendy's on St Andrews Road near I-26

SMM

 

[Claudia_T]

Boiled Peanuts? Like with the skins on? Why would anyone want to eat boiled peanuts?

Actually, I never even thought of people in my church as being advocates of not eating unclean meats until I got onto this message Board and it became an issue. I hadnt ever thought about it much before.

Its not like we go around turning on a siren and pulling people over if we see them eating a Ham Sandwich.

well at least I dont anyway, I dont know about Bob, he might.


Claudia

 

[Eric B]

You don't have to do that. But to keep accusing everyone of being in sin because they're missing parts of the law, is intrusive enough, when it is not true.
And your definition of "fulfilling" on the last pafe is twisted. "fulfilling" mean meeting the righeous requirements of the Law, through the Spirit, not just a synonym for "keeping in the Letter".
For instance, we do not keep the sacrifices anymore, but rather believe on Christ who is our sacrifice. We are then covered by His blood, and thus atoned, without even touching an animal. That "law" is "fulfilled" without literally keeping it. There are universal laws which are still to be kept, in the letter and magnified in the spirit, but the rest of those laws (which we are arguing over) are shadows of spiritual realities, by which they are "fulfilled" and thus are not commanded in the NT.

 

[Claudia_T]

Eric,

But if you yourself see something in the Bible and it says something... dont you feel that you need to say it? If the Bible says sin is transgression of the law, then am I supposed to pretend that it isnt? Just to avoid hurting someone's feelings?

And if we are all expressing our views, and beliefs then how am I supposed to express mine if I am not allowed to say that I believe transgression of the law is sin and that that Bible says that just because we are under grace doesnt mean we are now free to sin??

How am I supposed to be able to express that view without it sounding like I am condemning someone? (which I personally am not, but I know nobody would believe me anyway). Kind of like just how you probably feel you need to say things against the Roman Catholic church, right? whats the difference between me saying my views and you saying your against the catholic church?

or do you not do that?

Claudia