SDA Hypocrisy?

[BobRyan]

..."Sabbath as a necessity" in your words.

In fact you even admitted that the Isaiah 66 scope DOES apply to "ALL MANKIND" where it says "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND" come before Me to Worship.

Using proper exegesis we see clearly that Isaiah's readers - his contemporaries - clearly KNEW what it meant to "Come before God to worship from Sabbath to Sabbath" - so we know the meaning to the primary intended audience.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------DHK quotes DHK
1. There is no command anywhere in Scripture before Sinai for man to keep the Sabbath Day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As one can plainly see Mark 2:27 is not a command. There is no imperative there. It is a declarative statement, a statement of information, not a command. It simply says:

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
--In fact, if anything, this verse defeats your position. Jesus is pointing out precisely the reason why his disciples could "break" the Sabbath day.

First we note the Words of Christ "Sabbath WAS MADE FOR MANKIND" this is a reference to the initial and original intent for Christ the Creator's own Holy Day - HIS memorial of creation that etablished the Seventh-day of creation week. When IT was made - the week MANKIND was MADE.

Christ's statement goes to origin and original intent.

Your argument by contrast goes to something "completely different". Your argument above is that the original intent Jesus is speaking of "PRE-CROSS" for His OWN Sabbath - was that mankind "could break it as often as they wish".

Marriage and Sabbath were both made "for mankind" in Eden.

By "contrast" to your speculative proposal on ignoring our Creator's command we Have Christ Actually saying that not only is He LORD of the Sabbath in Mark 2 - but we have HIS specific words "If you Love ME KEEP My commandments".

Your attempt to make this Mark 2 case "IF you Love Me you are free to BREAK My commandments" Stands out in stark contrast.

Good to have that qoute from you though - thanks!

The "MADE for MAN so man can abuse it" argument would not work EITHER with the Creator's OWN Sanctified Holy Day or with Marriage. See Exodus 20:8-11 for the exact way that Christ our Creator phrased that command.

DHK
The Sabbath day was made for man. Man was not a slave to the Sabbath. He was not bound to the rules and regulations of it any longer. Christ was the Lord of the Sabbath (vs.28).

If we are free to abuse, abolish and ignore whatever "Christ is the Lord of " then your Bible is very different than mine -

But what is worse - that kind of reasoning is not exegesis of Mark 2 at all since Christ is not arguing FOR BREAKING HIS own Sabbath Commandment - He is arguing for the HISTORIC accurate and RIGHT view of the Commandment!

This is NO-CHANGE statement intended to RESTORE the Sabbath made FOR MANKIND to its rightful place EVEN in the pre-Cross Context.

Christ "The WORD" John 1:1 consistent with HIS Word did not come to "Abolish His Word" Matt 6.

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Bob said: "But what is worse - that kind of reasoning is not exegesis of Mark 2 at all since Christ is not arguing FOR BREAKING HIS own Sabbath Commandment - He is arguing for the HISTORIC accurate and RIGHT view of the Commandment!"

Thats what I dont understand... it seems so very clear to me that Jesus is doing that there.

What people are really doing in taking the opposite position is agreeing with the caviling Pharisees.

They accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath and they painted God out to bea horrible being who would just allow the sick to die on the Sabbath instead of healing them.

Doesnt anybody remember Jesus said "When you have seen Me you have seen the Father"? That was the very purpose Jesus came... Immanuel... God with us.

Jesus set them straight on how the Holy Sabbath was supposed to be kept.

The Pharisees claimed to be children of Abraham and claimed they kept the commandments, but Jesus said they needed to be set free and do the works of Abraham.. because sin caused them to be in bondage... they were planning on mudering Jesus while claiming to keep the law.

God's name was being dragged through the mud because of their phony service to God. They were supposed to be a light to the surrounding nations but gave out darkness of the misapprehension of God's character.


Isa:42:21: The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Jesus said IS IT LAWFUL TO DO WELL ON SABBATH OR TO LET THIS MAN SUFFER???
Ane you all are saying its LAWFUL to let them suffer and that Jesus BROKE THE LAW by healing the man!

Matthew 3:

1: And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2: And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3: And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4: And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.


In effect, you are accusing our perfect sacrifice, Jesus Christ, of being a SINNER! He couldnt of been our sacrifice is He had sinned.

Jn:8:46: Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

God question, which of YOU convict Jesus of Sin??

Jn:15:10: I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Heb:4:15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN.

 

[BobRyan]

Is 66
22 ""For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 ""And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.[/b]

24 ""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.''

BTW, Isa. 66 has nothing to do with my question either. There is no command in Isaiah 66 for us to keep the Sabbath.

This is so obviously wrong - I can't believe you would actually post it!

It is left as a simple exercise for the reader to "discover" if you think mankind will be free to be in open rebellion against the following statement from our Creator "From Sabbath to Sabbath SHALL ALL mankind come before Me to WORSHIP"

DHK your claim to not perceive any command for ALL MANKIND to come before God and worship in the NEW earth EVEN after READING it in Isaiah 66 is a true testament to the extent to which tradition can be inserted in place of scripture on this point.

I applaud the great distance you have made between your position and the actual text - to the extent that you have reached a significant "milestone" - not in the sense that I would ever want to go to such an extreme myself.

Is 66
22 ""For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 ""And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.[/b]

24 ""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.''

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK -

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


--In fact, if anything, this verse defeats your position. Jesus is pointing out precisely the reason why his disciples could "break" the Sabbath day.

The Sabbath day was made for man. Man was not a slave to the Sabbath. He was not bound to the rules and regulations of it any longer. Christ was the Lord of the Sabbath (vs.28). They had Christ

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3919/14.html#000197

The many ways in which that statement contradicts the text in view - is so "instructive" I just had to post it with the LINK - this one will come up "for reference" I don't want any quote of it to lose the place it has on this board!!

DHK - your "don't keep it any longer" statement above SHOWS that you NEED to insert a "CHANGE" into the words of Christ so that INSTEAD of HIS Words going back to origin and original scope and intent -- what "you need" is a "Change" that says "Don't keep ANY LONGER as you used to have to do by the original intent".

No such CHANGE language is found in Mark 2:27 "at all"!!

Christ's only comment is on the ORIGIN the original scope and intent of Sabbath "as it was MADE" and the original position of MANKIND at the MAKING of MANKIND. The initial scope of the Sabbath AND the relationship of MANKIND to Christ's the Creator's Holy Day - HIS memorial of HIS creatice act -- AS IT was in the beginning - when He "MADE" it!

Your "don't keep it any longer" statement is a huge defeat for you since NOT ONLY is such language NOT found in Mark 2:27 (And why should it be - this is PRE-CROSS!) but ALSO in saying "any longer" you unwittingly ADMIT that IT WAS GIVEN to mankind with intent that mankind should honor it - should "keep it holy"!!

Once you admit that in its origin IT was to be kept THEN Christ's own appeal to ITS ORIGIN as establishing its true role for mankind - utterly wipes out your argument in favor of abolishing Christ the Creator's Holy Day!

How can this be missed even by the most casual reader of that post??!!

The following words are spoken by Christ the Creator AFTER this Mark 2 event. So it appears that He addresses the question of any notion of pre-cross abolishing of His Word "explicitly"

Matt 5
17 ""Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 ""Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Is 66
22 ""For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 ""And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.

24 ""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.''

BTW, Isa. 66 has nothing to do with my question either. There is no command in Isaiah 66 for us to keep the Sabbath.

This is so obviously wrong - I can't believe you would actually post it!

It is left as a simple exercise for the reader to "discover" if you think mankind will be free to be in open rebellion against the following statement from our Creator "From Sabbath to Sabbath SHALL ALL mankind come before Me to WORSHIP"

DHK your claim to not perceive any command for ALL MANKIND to come before God and worship in the NEW earth EVEN after READING it in Isaiah 66 is a true testament to the extent to which tradition can be inserted in place of scripture on this point.

I applaud the great distance you have made between your position and the actual text - to the extent that you have reached a significant "milestone" - not in the sense that I would ever want to go to such an extreme myself.

Is 66
22 ""For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 ""And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.[/b]

24 ""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.''

IN Christ,

Bob [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]My argument is consistent. And you have not answered it yet. So what does worshipping during the time of a new heaven and a new earth (vs.22) have to do with today? Is this happening today? What possible relevance does this have for us today? Scripture out of context is only a pretext to try and justify your own pre-conceived tradition.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />DHK -

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


--In fact, if anything, this verse defeats your position. Jesus is pointing out precisely the reason why his disciples could "break" the Sabbath day.

The Sabbath day was made for man. Man was not a slave to the Sabbath. He was not bound to the rules and regulations of it any longer. Christ was the Lord of the Sabbath (vs.28). They had Christ

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3919/14.html#000197

The many ways in which that statement contradicts the text in view - is so "instructive" I just had to post it with the LINK - this one will come up "for reference" I don't want any quote of it to lose the place it has on this board!!

DHK - your "don't keep it any longer" statement above SHOWS that you NEED to insert a "CHANGE" into the words of Christ so that INSTEAD of HIS Words going back to origin and original scope and intent -- what "you need" is a "Change" that says "Don't keep ANY LONGER as you used to have to do by the original intent".

No such CHANGE language is found in Mark 2:27 "at all"!!

Christ's only comment is on the ORIGIN the original scope and intent of Sabbath "as it was MADE" and the original position of MANKIND at the MAKING of MANKIND. The initial scope of the Sabbath AND the relationship of MANKIND to Christ's the Creator's Holy Day - HIS memorial of HIS creatice act -- AS IT was in the beginning - when He "MADE" it!
</font>[/QUOTE]I don't keep the Sabbath "any longer."
I never kept it in the first place.
There is no command in Scripture for a New Testament believer to keep it, and you have been unable to show that. There is no reason for a believer to keep it. What you have shown here is
somply that the Sabbath is a memorial. It is not a command but a memorial. Jesus never in this passage gives a command to keep the Sabbath. Why do you insist that He does.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
..."Sabbath as a necessity" in your words.

In fact you even admitted that the Isaiah 66 scope DOES apply to "ALL MANKIND" where it says "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND" come before Me to Worship.

Using proper exegesis we see clearly that Isaiah's readers - his contemporaries - clearly KNEW what it meant to "Come before God to worship from Sabbath to Sabbath" - so we know the meaning to the primary intended audience.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

Using that reasoning you become like the liberal who denies the supernatural, denies any propecy of Isaiah. Do you deny also Isa.7:14 that it was a prophecy of the virgin birth of Christ? Was everything that Christ wrote, written to his contemporaries. How about Isaiah 53? No, Isaiah wrote plenty of prophetic literature. This was one of them. It is plain for all to see. When you can show me all mankind coming to worship Christ on his throne on earth, then I will believe you that the Sabbath has been reinstitued. But you cannot do that can you? Why can't you follow through with this verse Bob?
DHK

 

[SpyHunter]

I don't have anything more to say on this thread, as I already gave my piece earlier. However, I do have an observation to make, and it is this:

When someone hypocritically ignores scripture passages and accuses others of that same fallacy, then I think "Sola Scriptura" is a very inaccurate description of what's going on. When Scripture must be inverted, cut, and pasted together into a patchwork of text as it has been thus far in certain corners, I think there should be another Protestant precept created to facilitate this particular phenomena.

And so I decree that henceforth all exegetical commentary shall be under the precept of Sola Stupida-- text-proofing alone. Amen.

SpyHunter

 

[KellyWhite]

Originally posted by nate:
Is it just me or is the SDA church hypocritical? They claim they keep the Law and the Commandments. But yet the SDA's I know do not stone their rebellious children. Nor do they do any of these:
Lev. 19:9 "Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest"

and none of them keep Lev. 19:19 "You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

So my question is this how do you SDA decide which OT laws to keep and which to throw away. I ask because you don't eat Pork which is not a 10 Commandment.

Do Baptists believe that women are unclean during their menstral period?

Is it a sin or "wrong" not to eat pork? What if I don't eat catfish because they are bottom feeders? Is that wrong?

I never knew what I was missing by letting the SDAs carry on in peace.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ach nein Ich bin zu muede nun. While it is Sabbath now, I'll thank God for it and rest my weary body and soul even wearier. Jesus my Lord and Saviour, save and revive me to serve you with courage and joy. Amen

 

[DHK]

quoted by Bob Ryan:

First we note the Words of Christ "Sabbath WAS MADE FOR MANKIND" this is a reference to the initial and original intent for Christ the Creator's own Holy Day - HIS memorial of creation that etablished the Seventh-day of creation week. When IT was made - the week MANKIND was MADE.

Christ's statement goes to origin and original intent.

Your argument by contrast goes to something "completely different". Your argument above is that the original intent Jesus is speaking of "PRE-CROSS" for His OWN Sabbath - was that mankind "could break it as often as they wish".

Marriage and Sabbath were both made "for mankind" in Eden.

By "contrast" to your speculative proposal on ignoring our Creator's command we Have Christ Actually saying that not only is He LORD of the Sabbath in Mark 2 - but we have HIS specific words "If you Love ME KEEP My commandments".

First, “Keep my commandments” in no way refers to the Ten Commandments. They are the commandments of Christ. That is why he said MY commandments. They were HIS, not Moses’s commandmennts. I have listed some of Christ’s commandments for you before. I leave it to you to look them up.
Secondly your comparison between marriage and the Sabbath is like apples and oranges. There is no command to keep the Sabbath in the Book of Genesis. But there are commands regarding the institution of marriage.
A better illustration would be to compare the Sabbath to rest. If I break the Sabbath (pre-law) there are no consequences. This holds true today as well. There are no restrictions regarding rest either. God did not say, “Thou shalt get eight hours of rest each night.” I can get four or ten. There are not restrictions. There is no command. And there is no command to keep the Sabbath. Imposing a restriction to keep one day holy above another takes away soul liberty, and can lead to a doctrine of demons as described in 1Tim.4:1-5. The two that are mentioned in that passage are only examples. They are examples of forcing an unbiblical doctrine on others, which the SDA does. We know this is true by what it says in Romans 14:

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Every day is holy in God’s sight. Man can worship on any day he likes. The New Testament churches worshiped daily. Many churches in Islamic nations worship on Friday, as the Muslims do, because that is the only day they have off from work. It is their day of rest.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
DHK

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />quoted by Bob Ryan:

First we note the Words of Christ "Sabbath WAS MADE FOR MANKIND" this is a reference to the initial and original intent for Christ the Creator's own Holy Day - HIS memorial of creation that etablished the Seventh-day of creation week. When IT was made - the week MANKIND was MADE.

Christ's statement goes to origin and original intent.

Your argument by contrast goes to something "completely different". Your argument above is that the original intent Jesus is speaking of "PRE-CROSS" for His OWN Sabbath - was that mankind "could break it as often as they wish".

Marriage and Sabbath were both made "for mankind" in Eden.

By "contrast" to your speculative proposal on ignoring our Creator's command we Have Christ Actually saying that not only is He LORD of the Sabbath in Mark 2 - but we have HIS specific words "If you Love ME KEEP My commandments".

First, “Keep my commandments” in no way refers to the Ten Commandments. They are the commandments of Christ. That is why he said MY commandments. They were HIS, not Moses’s commandmennts. I have listed some of Christ’s commandments for you before. I leave it to you to look them up.
Secondly your comparison between marriage and the Sabbath is like apples and oranges. There is no command to keep the Sabbath in the Book of Genesis. But there are commands regarding the institution of marriage.
A better illustration would be to compare the Sabbath to rest. If I break the Sabbath (pre-law) there are no consequences. This holds true today as well. There are no restrictions regarding rest either. God did not say, “Thou shalt get eight hours of rest each night.” I can get four or ten. There are not restrictions. There is no command. And there is no command to keep the Sabbath. Imposing a restriction to keep one day holy above another takes away soul liberty, and can lead to a doctrine of demons as described in 1Tim.4:1-5. The two that are mentioned in that passage are only examples. They are examples of forcing an unbiblical doctrine on others, which the SDA does. We know this is true by what it says in Romans 14:

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Every day is holy in God’s sight. Man can worship on any day he likes. The New Testament churches worshiped daily. Many churches in Islamic nations worship on Friday, as the Muslims do, because that is the only day they have off from work. It is their day of rest.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Reckless assertions, each and every one, totally disregarding the Written Word of God. You talk as if you have received all power DHK, which have not.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Who is the 'legalist'? - The one who RELIES upon the Law, or the one who DEFIES the Law? The one who ACCEPTS the Law (in whichever form in this case), or the one who DEMANDS a law? The one who SUBMITS (or tries to submit) to the Law, or the one who is ABOVE the Law.

The one my be the Seventh Day Adventists; the other certainly sounds like DHK.

 

[Claudia_T]

A legalist is one who claims to keep the law but doesnt.

The Pharisees were legalists.

Mt:23:23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

They didnt have the underlying motivation of love. They claimed to keep the law while planning to murder God's Son.


A legalist is also someone who thinks only of the LEGAL aspects of salvation.

In other words they might say "I am so happy Jesus died for me! Thanks God. Period"

They want to be LEGALLY off the hook but care nothing about glorifying God by keeping His commandments. All they care about is "me and my salvation".

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said -
You say that Exodus 20 is a memorial. "It shows us that His own Holy Day is a memorial of His creatice act in making mankind--in making our world in six literal days."
That is all fine and good. But that is not a command to anyone but the Jews. As you admit it is a memorai. A memorial is different than a command. Next weekend is a long weekend. We call it: "Queen Victoria Day," a memorial to the reign of Queen Victoria, who by the way was a Christian. She was the longest reigning monarch that England ever had. Under her reign England prospered greatly. But you don't have to celebrate it if you don't want to. It is a memorial, not a command. In fact many do work on that day. And many others say: "Who is Queen Victoria?" They are just glad for a day off work. It is a memorial, not a command.

Again you avoided my question. You went back to Exodus 20 instead of Exodus 31 where my question was from. Exodus 31 is where Jehovah ratified his covenant with the nation of Israel and her generations forever, using the sign of the Sabbath for that ratification. It was for the Jews only. But you ignored that.

#1. Even though you say that "Bob said that".. in Exodus 20 God SAYS this day is a MEMORAL "For IN SIX DAYS GOD CREATED" -- in fact GOD is the one speaking there -- not "Bob".

That means that to abolish the Exodus 20 fact spoken by God using Exodus 31 against the Exodus 20 fact of history -- you must eisegete against what God has spoken there - not simply "what I am saying".

Your argument is with God.

Secondly your own argument from Isaiah 66 and Mark 2 is that "the Scope of ALL MANKIND" as listed IN the text pre-cross IS the scope for the Sabbath. Why in the world do you want to challenge that the day was NOT "MADE for MANKIND" by saying "JUST for JEWS" what Christ said it was "MADE for MANKIND" after you have already admitted that the pre-cross scope of Sabbath "MADE for mankind" in Mark 2:27 and intended for "ALL mankind to come before Me to Worship" Isaiah 66 - as applying to ALL MANKIND as the Bible said??

If it was true that we could always eisegete Ex 31 to abolish what was just established in chapter 20 of the same book "FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE" (which in this case would not only be to edit and abolish the Word of God but also to edit and revise Creation history) then EACH time we read a new text we could freely abolish what came previously.

Such eisegetical practices lead to predictable conclusions.

Matt 5 and 6 would then be to abolish "scripture" pre-cross known to God's people. (And certainly there ARE those Christian denominations that use that very eisegetical model to get that very result)

I do not.

Exodus 31 EXPANDS on and ADDS to the reasons for God's people to HONOR Christ the Creator's Sabbath - it does not REVISE/EDIT/ABOLISH what was just spoken!

This is so obvious that it hardly bears stating.

In Christ,

Bob


quote:Bob said

[ May 20, 2006, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Reckless assertions, each and every one, totally disregarding the Written Word of God. You talk as if you have received all power DHK, which have not.

No, Using sola scriptura it is called expounding the word of God, comparing Scripture with Scripture, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, avoiding any private interpretaton such as the SDA's private interepretation, adhering to the Scriptures alone instead of the tradtion of the SDA.

Since it goes against the tradition of the SDA which Jesus condemns, and is in harmony with the Bible, it upsets you, and you have no recourse but to make nasty remarks.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DHK
You claim adherence to the Sabbath is a necessity without Scriptural support. You cannot support your positon with Scripture.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob said --
The support for Christ the Creator's Holy day that I have shown - comes from scripture alone. It is not that complicated - pretty easy to follow.

#1. Mark 2:27 CHRIST SAID that this day was MADE for MANKIND.

#2. Isaiah 66 God tells us that the SCOPE of the Sabbath is for ALL MANKIND. "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" and the context is the NEW EARTH in Isaiah 66 the same future point in time that John identifies in Rev 21;1-3!

#3. In Exodus 20 God (actually Christ our Creator God) shows us that HIS OWN Holy Day is a memorial of HIS creative act in making mankind - in making our world in SIX literal days.

#4. Christ HIMSELF commands His own followers "IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments" and this was done PRE-CROSS -- which is before any reasonable argument can attempt to abolish God's Law.

#5 In Rev 12 and 14 we see that POST-Cross the SAINTS are STILL those that are known for the fact that they "keep the Commandments of God".

BTW - you youself admitted that the SCOPE In the OT was "ALL MANKIND" when you admit that your own view of Isaiah 66 though incorrect - still holds to a REAL "ALL MANKIND" intent in that text as spoken by God. In other words exegetically you could not reject the ALL-MANKIND scope stated in the text.

#6. It has been shown from Rom 3:31 that our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW of God - rather than abolishing it"

The idea that thes texts are simply "my tradition" or are not actually the Bible or are not proof that the argument I am making is "sola scriptura" would need to be "proven" defended in "detail" rather than merely "Assumed" without evidence.

In that way I provided a "numbered list" of Bible based arguments IN FAVOR of Christ the Creator's own Holy Day!

Then innexplicably DHK said this --

Post from DHK --

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#4. Christ HIMSELF commands His own followers "IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments" and this was done PRE-CROSS -- which is before any reasonable argument can attempt to abolish God's Law.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is your answer to my question #4 which was:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. The Isaiah 66 passage refers to a future time when Christ comes for the Jews, at which time "all Israel shall be saved." The covenant will be fulfilled at that time, and the Sabbath reinstituted. This is the Millennial Kingdom. Yes, all mankind will serve the Lord Jesus Christ (from Sabbath to Sabbath) as Christ rules from his throne in Jerusalem. At that time "all mankind" will ocme and worship Christ. But that does not happen today, does it? What is your answer to this Bob? Don't give me what John saw in Revelation. That has no bearing on what is happening now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What on earth has your answer got to do with this question which deals with a period of time which is still in the future.

I agree - your complaint in your #4 has nothing to do with my 4th argument in favor of Christ the Creator's Holy Day. It was not addressing your #4. See the note I have in my #5 as it relates to your comments on Isaiah 66.

Bascially once you admit that Christ really MEANS mankind when HE SAYS "the Sabbath was MADE for mankind" then your argument fails at the start. THis is a PRE-Cross statement of Christ about the ORIGIN of our Seventh-day sanctified and "made holy" in Gen 2:1 according to the Word of God!

Secondly You have already admitted to the "ALL MANKIND" scope stated as the intent for Christ's Holy day in Isaiah 66..

That means that your OWN view on Christ our Creator's Holy Day is that it was MADE FOR MANKIND Mark 2:27 and was INTENDED for ALL MANKIND in its full scope Isaiah 66.

How then can you ever hope to revise/edit/ignore/abolish God's OWN statement "FOR In SIX days the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth and rested the Seventh-day and because of that it was BLESSED AND HE MADE IT HOLY"

THE ONLY event given By God in HIS SPOKEN version of this commanement is the Creation EVENT!

Impossible to ignore for the covenience of tradition over scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
quote:Bob said
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#5 In Rev 12 and 14 we see that POST-Cross the SAINTS are STILL those that are known for the fact that they "keep the Commandments of God".
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DHK said --

This is your answer to my question:

quote:
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5. Where in any New Testament passage is there any command to keep the Sabbath? There isn't any clear command is there?
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Again you confuse your numbered list with mine. I am simply giving a numbered list of the Bible evidence in favor of Christ the Creator's Holy day in response to your opening statement that you can not find evidence in the Bible supporting the Day that our Creator made Holy and that is the basis for our seven day week.

DHK said

Again you skirt the question I ask you. You refer to Rev.12 and 14, not specific references.

I keep giving those specific references in my detailed "Keep the commandments" quotes from BOTH the PRECROSS and the POST cross contexts!!

I will provide that list "again" for your reading pleasure so you don't need to refer to this as a non-specific reference.

DHK
You say that they refer to "keeping the commandments of God."

Lets see if in fact "GOD" is not the one that says that (post to follow) - I am just "reporting the news".

But what are the commandments of God? Again those commandments of God are no doubt the New Testament commands set forth by Christ Himself,

Context destroys eisegesis DHK. Christ spoke pre-cross, Christ is God, God is the Author of HIS Commandments both OT and NT both Pre-Cross and Post-Cross.

In John 14:15 Christ speaks pre-cross.

Is it your contention that Christ's Word was abolished BEFORE the Cross!!??? When He speaks in Exodus 20:8-11 and then speaks again in John 14:15 do we understand Him to NOT refer to HIW OWN Word "Keep MY commandments"??

Do we eisegete that idea "so far" that even in Rev 12 and 14 "the Commandments of God" are NOT what we read in Exodus 20.

Is there ANYWHERE after the cross where "The Commandments of God" are shown NOT to come from what the NT authors called "Scripture"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This post is for DHK's reference to the "Commandments of God"

The pre-cross Commandments of Christ the Creator were to be kept by Christ’s followers.

John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”

These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.

But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?

Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.

Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.

Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --

Romans 3:31 “Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God”

So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same

John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)

Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?

Matt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s

I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".

Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.

Is it any wonder that Paul writes

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31

And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".

God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".

Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)