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SDA - inspired writings?
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ok - I was going to let some other SDA answer this since I have already come out in favor of the "sola scriptura" test for doctrines of the SDA church and of anyone claiming to have message from God that has a bearing on a doctrinal topic -- but I have to admit you have a point, that "which text to test" is certainly a reasonable first step.
Let's take something simple case like The Great Controversy.
There we find loads of doctrinal statements - wayy more than I need to prove my point about testing based on doctrine and the test of "sola scriptura".
But to be frank - I thought you would already be familiar with that book.
in Christ,
Bob
Let's take something simple case like The Great Controversy.
There we find loads of doctrinal statements - wayy more than I need to prove my point about testing based on doctrine and the test of "sola scriptura".
But to be frank - I thought you would already be familiar with that book.
in Christ,
Bob
Bob Ryan, on another thread you said this in regards to "inspired" writings.
"Which is my point here - that all messages have to be compared to scripture and tested for doctrinal accuracy."
Would you say then that if "any" of Ellen White's writings are in conflict with Scripture then she is a "false prophet"?
"Which is my point here - that all messages have to be compared to scripture and tested for doctrinal accuracy."
Would you say then that if "any" of Ellen White's writings are in conflict with Scripture then she is a "false prophet"?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Yes - If any message that Ellen White claimed to have come from God -- turns out to be a message with false doctrine - erroneous doctrine - then it makes her a false prophet.
That was my entire argument on the SDA Unique Doctrines thread each time you suggested that we forget doctrine and just look at "statiscally accuracy" on predictions for example.
That is WHY it is pointless to have an "Ellen White something something" discussion with a non-SDA who ALREADy objects to SDA doctrine before even looking into what Ellen White said.
Because I can assure that person that somewhere some place Ellen White will have had a message that at the very least "commented positively" on every SDA doctine we hold. That does not mean she "discovered it" for us historically - since we have the dates and events were those doctrines were studied and accepted by Adventist leaders BEFORE Ellen White had any vision that mentioned it.
But it DOES mean that if I am a Catholic and for some reason I believe that Catholic doctrine is Biblically correct and SDA doctrine is Biblically in error - it should not take that long to find an Ellen White statement on doctrine from one of her inspired writings that conflicts with my POV on doctrine. And that ends it - right there -- in the case of the Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist etc.
in Christ,
Bob
That was my entire argument on the SDA Unique Doctrines thread each time you suggested that we forget doctrine and just look at "statiscally accuracy" on predictions for example.
That is WHY it is pointless to have an "Ellen White something something" discussion with a non-SDA who ALREADy objects to SDA doctrine before even looking into what Ellen White said.
Because I can assure that person that somewhere some place Ellen White will have had a message that at the very least "commented positively" on every SDA doctine we hold. That does not mean she "discovered it" for us historically - since we have the dates and events were those doctrines were studied and accepted by Adventist leaders BEFORE Ellen White had any vision that mentioned it.
But it DOES mean that if I am a Catholic and for some reason I believe that Catholic doctrine is Biblically correct and SDA doctrine is Biblically in error - it should not take that long to find an Ellen White statement on doctrine from one of her inspired writings that conflicts with my POV on doctrine. And that ends it - right there -- in the case of the Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist etc.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
targus said:
To which I responded with a very simple test case example The Great Controversy since that is one of Ellen White's most "Doctrinal INTENSIVE" books. She describes events at the end of time,sees the 7 last plagues, sees the literal post-trib, pre-mill 2nd coming rapture (+ resurrection) of the saints to heaven, sees the millennium and desolate earth, sees the Holy City post-mill, sees the lake of fire, sees the new earth, sees the judgment... You can't get any more "comments on doctrine" than that.
PLENTY of material there to cover every SDA doctrine that we hold and "get a comment on it" in some way shape or form.
Plenty of high profile doctrines given front and center stage.
Plenty of opportunity to say "hey Ellen White said this doctrine on Baptism, on premill, on free will, on literal 2nd coming, on Ten Commandments, on losing salvation, on ... --- is OK and I don't believe it matches the way I read the Bible".
You "should" be having a field day with that saying "hey this differs with my view on doctrine established sola-scriptura"!!
But "innexplicably" we "get this" from you???
targus said:
Huh???
Is this some kind of "bait and switch"??
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Ok, here is an example.
"You should be teaching your children. You should be instructing them how to shun the vices and corruption's of this age. Instead of this, many are studying how to get something good to eat. You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat and then your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362, 1870)
No doubt you will tell me that this is either not inspired or does not talk about an SDA doctrine.
But she does appear to be saying that if you feed your children butter, eggs and meat then your prayers to God for your children will not be heard.
That is why I am looking for the "list" of "inspired" writings.
No point in offering example after example for you to say "it doesn't count".
BTW - the above example sure looks like error to me. I am not aware of anywhere in Scripture where we are forbidden to eat butter, eggs or meat. Let alone that our prayers for our children will not be heard if we feed these foods to them.
And if she is in error here - why would she then not be a "false prophet"?
"You should be teaching your children. You should be instructing them how to shun the vices and corruption's of this age. Instead of this, many are studying how to get something good to eat. You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat and then your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362, 1870)
No doubt you will tell me that this is either not inspired or does not talk about an SDA doctrine.
But she does appear to be saying that if you feed your children butter, eggs and meat then your prayers to God for your children will not be heard.
That is why I am looking for the "list" of "inspired" writings.
No point in offering example after example for you to say "it doesn't count".
BTW - the above example sure looks like error to me. I am not aware of anywhere in Scripture where we are forbidden to eat butter, eggs or meat. Let alone that our prayers for our children will not be heard if we feed these foods to them.
And if she is in error here - why would she then not be a "false prophet"?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You ask me to give you a book showing the doctrinal positions Ellen White made in her messages - then ignore the book and go for your own material -- in this case "the ideal diet for children"????????????
Targue - you have an agenda that I am just not following.
To which I responded with a very simple test case example The Great Controversy since that is one of Ellen White's most "Doctrinal INTENSIVE" books. She describes events at the end of time,sees the 7 last plagues, sees the literal post-trib, pre-mill 2nd coming rapture (+ resurrection) of the saints to heaven, sees the millennium and desolate earth, sees the Holy City post-mill, sees the lake of fire, sees the new earth, sees the judgment... You can't get any more "comments on doctrine" than that.
PLENTY of material there to cover every SDA doctrine that we hold and "get a comment on it" in some way shape or form.
Plenty of high profile doctrines given front and center stage.
Plenty of opportunity to say "hey Ellen White said this doctrine on Baptism, on premill, on free will, on literal 2nd coming, on Ten Commandments, on losing salvation, on ... --- is OK and I don't believe it matches the way I read the Bible".
You "should" be having a field day with that saying "hey this differs with my view on doctrine established sola-scriptura"!!
But "innexplicably" we "get this" from you???
Huh???
Is this some kind of "bait and switch"??
We may have to have this conversation a few times until I get you to respond to the point.
in Christ,
Bob
Targue - you have an agenda that I am just not following.
To which I responded with a very simple test case example The Great Controversy since that is one of Ellen White's most "Doctrinal INTENSIVE" books. She describes events at the end of time,sees the 7 last plagues, sees the literal post-trib, pre-mill 2nd coming rapture (+ resurrection) of the saints to heaven, sees the millennium and desolate earth, sees the Holy City post-mill, sees the lake of fire, sees the new earth, sees the judgment... You can't get any more "comments on doctrine" than that.
PLENTY of material there to cover every SDA doctrine that we hold and "get a comment on it" in some way shape or form.
Plenty of high profile doctrines given front and center stage.
Plenty of opportunity to say "hey Ellen White said this doctrine on Baptism, on premill, on free will, on literal 2nd coming, on Ten Commandments, on losing salvation, on ... --- is OK and I don't believe it matches the way I read the Bible".
You "should" be having a field day with that saying "hey this differs with my view on doctrine established sola-scriptura"!!
But "innexplicably" we "get this" from you???
Huh???
Is this some kind of "bait and switch"??
We may have to have this conversation a few times until I get you to respond to the point.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Bob said -
When Ellen White speaks to the subject of (and in favor of)
1. believer's Baptism,
2. the state of the dead,
3. the literal millennium,
4. the pre-mill second coming,
5. the Trinity,
6. the 2Cor 5 judgment of all,
7. the literal bodily resurrection of christ,
8. the literal bodily resurrection of the saints,
9. the need to test all doctrines "Sola Scriptura",
10. the fact of free will,
11. the process of Atonement as defined in scripture .... etc
these messages that she claims to have come from God are going to "cut across somebody's doctrinal view".
I don't see how anyone who is not already Adventist in doctrine would even begin to confirm her as a prophet. I don't see how a Baptist would ever confirm a Lutheran prophet if that prophet endorsed the very doctrinal distinctives of the Lurtheran faith that are in opposition to that which most Baptists believe.
When Ellen White speaks to the subject of (and in favor of)
1. believer's Baptism,
2. the state of the dead,
3. the literal millennium,
4. the pre-mill second coming,
5. the Trinity,
6. the 2Cor 5 judgment of all,
7. the literal bodily resurrection of christ,
8. the literal bodily resurrection of the saints,
9. the need to test all doctrines "Sola Scriptura",
10. the fact of free will,
11. the process of Atonement as defined in scripture .... etc
these messages that she claims to have come from God are going to "cut across somebody's doctrinal view".
I don't see how anyone who is not already Adventist in doctrine would even begin to confirm her as a prophet. I don't see how a Baptist would ever confirm a Lutheran prophet if that prophet endorsed the very doctrinal distinctives of the Lurtheran faith that are in opposition to that which most Baptists believe.
BobRyan said:
I am beginning to wonder if you suffer from some sort of reading comprehension problem.
I did not "ask you for a book".
Go back and carefully read what I wrote in each post on this thread.
I have asked at least twice "which of Ellen White's writings do SDAs consider to be inspired".
I don't understand why this is so difficult for you.
SDAs have a "library" of stuff written by Ellen White.
Is it all "inspired"?
Is just some of it "inspired"?
Which of Ellen White's writings do SDAs consider to be "inspired"?
Yes, but again - I am asking which Ellen White writings do SDAs consider "inspired"?
I did not ask for a "simple test case".
I didn't ask for SDA doctrines.
I asked which of Ellen White's writings do SDAs consider to be "inspired"?
You seem to have a habit of dodging direct questions with misdirection. Instead of telling me what I should be insterested in or what other questions I should be asking, why not answer a direct (repeated) question?
No bait and switch.
Just the same unanswered question from the opening post which you continually fail to answer.
Which of Ellen White's writings do SDAs consider to be "inspired"?
Dude, seriously, go back to the opening post. That is the topic of this thread.
Which of Ellen White's writings do SDAs consider to be "inspired"?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
And so then I GAVE a very simple test case - for that "test against scripture" that you claimed to want to do -- a test case RICH in many doctrinal points "for you to do your test".
Let me guess- you are asking for ANOTHER book -- other than the one I suggested because you already found Desire of Ages to match perfectly with the Doctrines as you believe them - from scripture???? no???
Then why carry this pointless exercise any further - you apparently have no interest indoing the "sola scriptura" test that you "claimed" to have interest in doing.
How "surprising".
Good luck with whatever agenda you have.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan said:
You're just fooling with me - right?
You read my last two posts and really don't understand the question?
I'll repeat it again.
WHICH of your prophet's writings are INSPIRED?
I am NOT asking for a "book".
I am NOT asking for a "simple sample".
I am NOT asking for SDA "doctrine".
I AM asking for a LIST of the writings which SDA claim to be "inspired".
This REALLY is "not that difficult".
I am asking so that I can find out WHICH WRITINGS OF ELLEN WHITE SDAs CONSIDER INSPIRED.
Or is it possible that you don't know and have simply swallowed the SDA line without testing the prophet.
If you tested her "inspired" writings then you SHOULD be able to list them for me - just as I can provide you with my list of "inspired" writings.
Hint - my list is contained in the BIBLE.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I did not engage in the conversation of your first post. It was not until you came to the SDA-Unique-Docrtines thread with the repeated request that you also stated here stating that you could not reasonably be expected to do single sola-scriptura test with something Ellen White wrote without having a document that was supposedly the product of 1cor 12 "inspiration".
It was not until you came to that "reasonable level" of request that I responded - QUOTING that request of yours AND responding to it. Prior to that point I was perfectly happy to let some other SDA on this board show an interest into your other agenda.
However as you pointed out recently - you actually had not such intention of going down that road.
Thanks for sharing and saving both of us a lot of time.
in Christ,
Bob
It was not until you came to that "reasonable level" of request that I responded - QUOTING that request of yours AND responding to it. Prior to that point I was perfectly happy to let some other SDA on this board show an interest into your other agenda.
However as you pointed out recently - you actually had not such intention of going down that road.
Thanks for sharing and saving both of us a lot of time.
in Christ,
Bob
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