SDA unique doctrine

[BobRyan]

#1. No pope for SDAs.
#2. Not even "papal administration"
#3. Historically SDAs were very opposed to anything like a "creed"
#4. Lots of individual freedom in the SDA church as opposed to dictatorship
#5. The "President of the General Conference" is an Administrative position not a doctrinal position. In fact there are NO recognized groups within the SDA church that hold doctrinal authority other than the entire denomination selecting representatives and sending them to the quiquinial meetings (Every 5 years).

I am sure there simply "must be" a way to construe all of that "in a bad way" - but I am just stating the facts.

Still there are a small list of things that are a "test of fellowship" for SDAs -- one of which is that you can not sell alcholol or Tobacco.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The only conclusion one could then draw would be that the "doctrine" is that Ellen White must be accepted as a prophet but the "practice" is to disregard the "doctrine".

I have not made any "SDAs must accept" and "Must believe" speculations.

Whatever.

I am merely pointing out that the statement of belief which you provided and which I included in the opening post of this thread states that Ellen White manifested the gift of prophecy.

I agree that the statement you quoted not only endorses the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy it also makes the claim that Ellen White had it. And I also agree with you that to some degree it makes more sense for SDAs to accept this in it's entirety.

It's kinda like Arminians today who claim free will but then can't let go of their OSAS traditions. OSAS works for Calvinism but not for the Arminian free will model.

But we are no more inclined to argue that Arminians who cling to OSAS must stop being Baptists than SDAs are prone to argue that SDAs who accept the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy in 1Cor 12 as still being valid - but reject Ellen White as an example of someone who had that gift --
should not be Adventists.

Nothing new there.

So now after you have explained it to me, I understand that no SDA member is required to hold any particular belief - whether it is a fundemental belief voted on by the world wide SDA church or not.

Not true. Some things ARE a "test of fellowship". And in general all SDAs are asked to sign or agree to "The Baptismal statements" that include most of the 27 fundamental beliefs.

But a person may claim to believe in Spiritual Gifts and yet not be in perfect argeement on what those are from 1Cor 12 -- they would still be baptized.

The point of the 27 statements and Baptismal classes are to make sure that those joining the church know what the members believe in general and know the history of the church.

I am left wondering as to the purpose of a stated set of beliefs for any denomination if they are optional. I suspect that most denominations would prefer that persg entering into their denomination accept the doctrines of that denomination.

Is it fair to conclude then that an SDA will not be excluded if they rejected any of the other beliefs listed?

It is not unlimitted. I don't know of any SDA that has been accepted into the church rejecting the Ten Commandments or rejecting the Sabbath commandment or believing in praying to the dead.

But I have been surprised to find a few out there who do not accept the Trinity though it is an accepted doctrine. And I keep hearing rumors that there are some out there who believe in evolutionism -- though I have never met one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

These threads of yours are bordering on 'flaming' which is against the BB rules that you agreed to when you joined. So, if you want to continue this 'baiting' of Bob, I suggest you take it private. Consider this a gentle warning...

"flaming" "baiting" ? I must rspectfully disagree. This thread is super mild compared to what I've seen allowed in many discussions.

How would those caught up in Aventism ever have a chance to turn from it if not for debates such as these?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Still there are a small list of things that are a "test of fellowship" for SDAs -- one of which is that you can not sell alcholol or Tobacco.

in Christ,

Bob

Curious as to what sola-scripture is used for this belief?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

I think it is 1Cor 6:19 and 1Cor 3:17.

Basically SDAs interpret that loosely as "no drug dealing".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

1Cr 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

This is exclusively hooking up in fornication.

1Cr 6:18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1Cr 3:17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Coinsides with 1Cr 6:19.

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Is selling a caffine drink (a drug) ok?

God Bless!:thumbs:

 

[Joe]

1Cr 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

This is exclusively hooking up in fornication.

1Cr 6:18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1Cr 3:17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Coinsides with 1Cr 6:19.

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Is selling a caffine drink (a drug) ok?

God Bless!:thumbs:

Hi Steaver
I read your verses above carefully.

1Cor 6:18- It says every sin that man doeth is without the body;
It is not limited to hooking up with another

You listed Matt 15:11, it is often misapplied. Jesus is instructing the Pharisees that transgressing the commandments of God for their traditions is sin. It isn't really directed to our "diet" per se.

See a few verses later..

Matt 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.

So imo, food and drink intake can also defile our temples. I think Bob R. would agree

 

[Palatka51]

So imo, food and drink intake can also defile our temples. I think Bob R. would agree

Slothfulness is what causes that food or drink to become harmful. Cause and effect rule is now in play. :laugh:

 

[Joe]

Palatka, that's funny :laugh: now I have a great homo comeback for that one
but I guess I better not...:saint:

 

[BobRyan]

1Cr 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

This is exclusively hooking up in fornication.

"exclusively" as in "all other forms of bodily damage are just fine just stay away from fornication"??????

Paul draws upon the "general principle" that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit to then argue that you should not damage that temple in this case with fornication.

You seem to bend that somewhat to mean that you are free to damage the temple anyway you like - as long is you don't do it with fornication.

Well then - clearly we differ.

In any case - this is one that SDAs use for arguing against "drug dealing" even "when it is legal".

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

In Matt 15 Christ was speaking about the Jewish myth that sin was getting on the wheat and that hands needed to be ceremonialy "baptized" or else sin sticking to the wheat would then infest the person.

Christ declared the Jewish myth (called "traditions of the elders" in Matt 15:2) to be invalid.

This is also recorded in Mark 7 and there (as Joe rightly points out) Christ is adamant about the error of the Jews in using the traditions of men to invalidate the "Commandments of God".

Pretty strong message Christ gives there - but you almost never see people quote Matt 15 to make the point that Christ actually makes there. (Maybe they use a "funny kind of filter" when they read that chapter.)

Is selling a caffine drink (a drug) ok?

God Bless!:thumbs:

Hint: SDAs are instructed to avoid coffee and other caffine drinks.

But "selling Jolt" has not been introduced as " a test of fellowship"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Hint: SDAs are instructed to avoid coffee and other caffine drinks.

But "selling Jolt" has not been introduced as " a test of fellowship"

in Christ,

Bob

I see, then they are selective in what drugs are ok for fellowship.

Got it!

 

[BobRyan]

Seven drops of Nicotine (one carton of cigarettes in the 1960's heavy-weight days) will kill a horse.

yea - I guess some drugs are more potent than others. Hmm what a concept?!

But far beit from me to remotely suggest that only SDAs could figure that one out. I think it pretty much hits the common sense button today across the board.

So you know that that means..... once again I am simply "pointing out the obvious".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

"exclusively" as in "all other forms of bodily damage are just fine just stay away from fornication"??????

1Cr 6:18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

No further explanantion needed.

Paul draws upon the "general principle" that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit to then argue that you should not damage that temple in this case with fornication.

Paul is specifically absolutely crystal clear....

1Cr 6:18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

You seem to bend that somewhat to mean that you are free to damage the temple anyway you like - as long is you don't do it with fornication.

The "bend" is only in your own desire to change the crystal clear teaching about fornication being a sin to your own body and EVERY other sin NOT!

In Matt 15 Christ was speaking about the Jewish myth that sin was getting on the wheat and that hands needed to be ceremonialy "baptized" or else sin sticking to the wheat would then infest the person.

Christ declared the Jewish myth (called "traditions of the elders" in Matt 15:2) to be invalid.

Actually, it wasn't a Jewish myth but rather a Jewish tradition to follow the letter of the law which God commanded such washing. The Jews clearly understood it was the "food" and not "sin attached to the food" that was the focus of the defiled if not properly sanctified through their traditions.

Jesus then explains to the Jews.....


Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Point remains. It is not what you eat and drink, blessed or cursed. Peter was also taught this with the food vision from heaven.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Seven drops of Nicotine (one carton of cigarettes in the 1960's heavy-weight days) will kill a horse.

yea - I guess some drugs are more potent than others. Hmm what a concept?!

But far beit from me to remotely suggest that only SDAs could figure that one out. I think it pretty much hits the common sense button today across the board.

So you know that that means..... once again I am simply "pointing out the obvious".

in Christ,

Bob

That's nice, but I have to stick with the scripture on this one. 100 years ago nobody preached against a cigeratte, nobody knew they caused any harm! After it was discovered they caused some bodily problems it all of a sudden became a BIG sin!

ANd bacon cheesburgers, soda, milkshakes, frenchfries, just about all deep fried foods and grilled foods, and water, and...well you get the picture. I see why Jesus said what He did in Matt 15. ANd just like the Jews...traditions of men continues on!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Joe]

 

[BobRyan]

That's nice, but I have to stick with the scripture on this one. 100 years ago nobody preached against a cigeratte, nobody knew they caused any harm! After it was discovered they caused some bodily problems it all of a sudden became a BIG sin!

OK you got me - Nobody was really hammering the health risk of Nicotine 140 years ago.... EXCEPT SDAs in all their literature and health sanitariums even while medical science was pushing "medicated cigarets" for asmatics!

But I still claim that NOW it is pretty much common knowledge. AND I still claim that drugs have different potency and that THIS TOO is common knowledge.

So if your point is that my post - if it had been posted on the internet 100 years ago would not be a case of "me posting the obvious" I will grant that tiny niche but of course - there was no internet then so not sure how your point would have "played out".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
In Matt 15 Christ was speaking about the Jewish myth that sin was getting on the wheat and that hands needed to be ceremonialy "baptized" or else sin sticking to the wheat would then infest the person.

Christ declared the Jewish myth (called "traditions of the elders" in Matt 15:2) to be invalid.

Steaver -
Actually, it wasn't a Jewish myth but rather a Jewish tradition to follow the letter of the law which God commanded such washing. The Jews clearly understood it was the "food" and not "sin attached to the food" that was the focus of the defiled if not properly sanctified through their traditions.

It is always a pleasure to get into the details of a Bible text where Christ condemns the bogus myths and supertitions of the "traditions of the Elders" (as the text says) -- with some one who wants to try and pin that on God's WORD instead of where it belongs "the traditions of the elders".

MADE up from the get go!

1. there is NO COMMAND in God's word to "baptize hands" before eating wheat. Or to "Baptize hands before eating". By that we are not talking about real washing - but ceremonial "dipping" - baptizing. Is this the part where you decided to "make stuff up" in behalf of your argument? Why in the world would you claim that the Bible instructed them to dip hands in water before eating wheat?? (John Gill, Matthew Henry, Jamieson-Fausset-and-Brown all get this point easily that this is just made-up-tradition of the Jews... where were you mislead into thinkiing that the Bible was on the side of the Jews and Jesus was calling for violation of the Word of God?? Why in the world atribute to Jesus the errors of the Jews???)

2. IN THE TEXT Christ said that the WORD OF GOD is being NEGATEd/replaced/contradicted by the TRADITIONS OF MEN.

The myths and superstitions contained in the "traditions of the elders" were in direct contradiction to the Words of Scripture according to Christ.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT [b]IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''[/b]
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

 

[targus]

Bob Ryan,

This is what I have concluded from this discussion so far.....

The SDA has a published list of beliefs -

that SDA members may or may not believe (opinons vary)

to be baptized into the SDA denomination one is required to agree to or sign a list of beliefs which may or may not be similar to the published list of beliefs (again opinions vary)

finally there is at least one condition for baptisim which all SDA's agree on - no selling of tabacco or alcohol.

Can you blame a guy for being confused about your denominations beliefs?

 

[targus]

Bob Ryan,

Why does your denomination only put emphasis on tobacco and alcohol?

Could a butcher that sells pork be baptized as an SDA?

How about a casino employee?

A doctor that performs abortions?

 

[steaver]

But I still claim that NOW it is pretty much common knowledge. AND I still claim that drugs have different potency and that THIS TOO is common knowledge.

You stick with your "common knowledge" preaching and I will stick with "Thus sayeth the Lord".

God Bless! :thumbs: