Sda -

[targus]

The doctrine in the church is that 1Cor12 is a valid NT text - pointing God's teaching on spiritual gifts.

Just as "EACH ONE" in 1Cor 4 was said by Paul to have a "revelation" so also Ellen White happens to be "yet another" example of that spiritual gift - as was Agabus (yet "another" NT example of a non-Bible writing prophet) and Anna (yet "another" NT example of a non-Bible writing prophet).

Trying wrench the subject around so that Agabus or the 1Cor 14 saints that met with "EACH" one having a revelation -- are all examples of creating "new doctrine" or doctrine based on "the Word of Agabus" never worked in the NT - and still does not work as though it were a "funny kind of exegesis" today.

I thought this was the obvious part.

in Christ,

Bob

Alot of words just to dance around the question.

How about a direct answer instead?

That Ellen White is a prophet IS a doctrine of your church is it not?

A simple "yes" or "no" is all that is needed.

Not betting the farm that you can do it though.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The doctrine in the church is that 1Cor12 is a valid NT text - pointing God's teaching on spiritual gifts.

Just as "EACH ONE" in 1Cor 4 was said by Paul to have a "revelation" so also Ellen White happens to be "yet another" example of that spiritual gift - as was Agabus (yet "another" NT example of a non-Bible writing prophet) and Anna (yet "another" NT example of a non-Bible writing prophet).

Trying wrench the subject around so that Agabus or the 1Cor 14 saints that met with "EACH" one having a revelation -- are all examples of creating "new doctrine" or doctrine based on "the Word of Agabus" never worked in the NT - and still does not work as though it were a "funny kind of exegesis" today.

I thought this was the obvious part.

Alot of words just to dance around the question.

How about a direct answer instead?
.

As it turns out - my answers to the form of "Actual words".

You will need to "read the text and respond substantively" to the points made if you want to understand the answer and possibly even suggest a weakness in it.

Still waiting...

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

As it turns out - my answers to the form of "Actual words".

You will need to "read the text and respond substantively" to the points made if you want to understand the answer and possibly even suggest a weakness in it.

Still waiting...

in Christ,

Bob

I knew you couldn't do it. :laugh:

That is what you get from the SDA.

Words, words, words, and more words - but no direct answer!!!

So how about it?

That Ellen White is a prophet IS a doctrine of your church is it not?

Why are you afraid to answer with a simple "yes" or " no"?

 

[BobRyan]

Apparently you have no answer for my post and so this is your way of not-posting.

Very well - to each his own.

But for those objective unbiased readers that may be following the point instead of trying to avoid it --

The doctrine in the church (regarding those who claim to be non-Bible writing prophets -- such as Ellen White or anyone at all) is that 1Cor12 is a valid NT text - pointing God's teaching on spiritual gifts.

Just as "EACH ONE" in 1Cor 4 was said by Paul to have a "revelation" so also Ellen White happens to be "yet another" example of that spiritual gift - as was Agabus (yet "another" NT example of a non-Bible writing prophet) and Anna (yet "another" NT example of a non-Bible writing prophet).

Trying wrench the subject around so that Agabus or the 1Cor 14 saints that met with "EACH" one having a revelation -- are all examples of creating "new doctrine" or doctrine based on "the Word of Agabus" never worked in the NT - and still does not work as though it were a "funny kind of exegesis" today.

I thought this was the obvious part.

 

[targus]

Apparently you have no answer for my post and so this is your way of not-posting.

Very well - to each his own.

But for those objective unbiased readers that may be following the point instead of trying to avoid it --

[/I]

I am not asking you if there are gifts of prophesy.

I am asking you if it is a doctrine in your church that Ellen White is a prophet.

I'll give you yet another chance to dodge a simple direct question.

Is it a doctrine in your church that Ellen White is a prophet?

 

[BobRyan]

There was a typo in my post - I used 1Cor 4 -- it should have been 1Cor 14 -- it is corrected below.

The doctrine in the church is that 1Cor12 is a valid NT text - pointing God's teaching on spiritual gifts.

Just as "EACH ONE" in 1Cor 14 was said by Paul to have a "revelation" so also Ellen White happens to be "yet another" example of that spiritual gift - as was Agabus (yet "another" NT example of a non-Bible writing prophet) and Anna (yet "another" NT example of a non-Bible writing prophet).

Trying wrench the subject around so that Agabus or the 1Cor 14 saints that met with "EACH" one having a revelation -- are all examples of creating "new doctrine" or doctrine based on "the Word of Agabus" never worked in the NT - and still does not work as though it were a "funny kind of exegesis" today.

I thought this was the obvious part.

Our doctrine is that we support the Bible statements on the Gifts of the Spirit - including the gift of prophecy.

We also support the Bible teaching in Eph 4 that these gifts are to continue until the end of time.

Therefore as stated above - we accept the fact Agabus and Anna and Philip's 4 daughters - and as Paul says "EACH ONE" in Corinth had a "revelation" to report as they met week by week, though all of these are examples of non-Bible-writing prophets.

We also argue that any message that a prophet claims as coming from God - must be tested "sola scriptura" to see IF that is a real prophet.

And based on those fundamental beliefs - we accept that Ellen White was also another example of someone having that same non-Bible-writer kind of role in receiving the 1Cor 12 gift.

Thanks for asking to have it said "yet again" Targus.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

There was a typo in my post...

How do you have a "typo" when most of your postings here on the board are nothing more than cut and paste from the SDA "Long and Ponderous Circular Answers to Embarassing Questions About the SDA Handbook"?

And based on those fundamental beliefs - we accept that Ellen White was also another example of someone having that same non-Bible-writer kind of role in receiving the 1Cor 12 gift.

Ooooohhhhh... please don't tease me with a hint that at long last we may be getting near to an answer to this very simple and straight forward question.

So SDA accept that Ellen White "blah blah blah".

Now for the salient question - yet again.

Is it DOCTRINE to believe that Ellen White is a prophet?

Can someone be baptized into the SDA if they do not believe that Ellen White is a prophet?

Can someone be baptized into the SDA if they say "I'm sure that Ellen White was a really nice lady but I don't care to know what she thought about anything because the Bible is all I need."?

Can someone be baptized into the SDA if they say "Ellen White a prophet? No way. Are you kidding me? Am I on Candid Camera? But I sure like the vegetarian diet so count me in"?

 

[targus]

Is it DOCTRINE to believe that Ellen White is a prophet?

Can someone be baptized into the SDA if they do not believe that Ellen White is a prophet?

Can someone be baptized into the SDA if they say "I'm sure that Ellen White was a really nice lady but I don't care to know what she thought about anything because the Bible is all I need."?

Can someone be baptized into the SDA if they say "Ellen White a prophet? No way. Are you kidding me? Am I on Candid Camera? But I sure like the vegetarian diet so count me in"?

Bumped in the vain hope that Bobryan will give a direct yes or no answer to these questions.

 

[BobRyan]

I like the idea that Targus cannot read this response below.

I am wondering how many others are willing to join Targus in that claim.

The basis for even knowing and accepting any prophet is the 1Cor 12 basis of spiritual gifts. Turns out the gift of prophecy is one of them.

1Thess 5:19-20 says that we are neither to "quench the Spirit" nor are we to "despise prophetic messages".

1Cor 14 says that when the NT church met "EACH ONE had a teaching, a revelation, a tongue" - yet we know that we have no text of scripture handed down to us today from "each one at the church of Corinth". Thus we have one of many examples that the gift of prophecy did not necessarily make one a "Bible writer".

Rev 19 states that the saints are known as those who have the Testimony of Jesus - which is (according to the text) the "Spirit of prophecy"

1 John 4 tells us to test the prophets. We are not to accept everyone who claims the gift of prophecy.

The first test of a prophet is the Is 8:20 test "to the Law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word - they have no light"

1Cor 14 states that prophecy is "a sign for believers" - that is those who hold to the same understanding of the Bible - a common doctrinal POV that can be used to test the prophets. Hence the basis for Adventists to test and accept someone like Ellen White based on evaluating her messages "sola scriptura".

For that reason (obviously) a context where not all Christians are in agreement on all doctrines - you have no basis for insisting that they all accept a methodist, or baptist, or presbyterian, or Adventist as a prophet.

Just stating the obvious so far.

Note "the detail" that I am not asking whether you agree with the response - I am asking if you can read and understand it.

It is not required that all sides agree on every issue - but the basic ability to read and understand the response is the first step in actual communication.

Still waiting.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sounds Biblical to me thus far BR.:thumbsup:

 

[BobRyan]

HP that is good to see!



I have never argued that non-SDAs should accept Ellen White as a prophet. By contrast I keep arguing that the Bible test is the first test of a prophet - which means "by definition" that anyone holding to Non-SDA doctrinal POV regarding scripture would most certainly have to see Ellen White as having "at least one message" claimed to be from God - that did not match their view of the Bible.

My argument instead - has been to show why we accept the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy and why Adventist also accept Ellen White as being an example of someone who had that gift.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Bobryan, PLEASE read with CARE.

I am asking if ELLEN WHITE as PROPHET is SDA DOCTRINE.

I am NOT asking if SDA believes in the gift of prophesy.

I am NOT asking if there are other prophets.

I AM asking if it is SDA DOCTRINE that Ellen White SPECIFICALLY is a prophet.

Will the SDA church accept any one into the SDA if they do not accept Ellen White as a prophet?

PLEASE do NOT cut and paste more of the SAME.

PLEASE answer with a SHORT - DIRECT - YES or NO.

This is NOT that HARD.

 

[BobRyan]

As I have stated half a dozen times - our doctrine is that the 1Cor 12 list of spiritual gifts is "VALID" and that includes the gift of prophecy.

our doctrine is that one of the Bible TESTS of a prophet is the Is 8:19-20 test that their message that is claimed to be from God - MUST be tested "sola scriptura".

There are a large number of SDAs that accept that doctrine AND also accept that Ellen White passed that Bible test. And there are those who agree with the 1Cor 12 list but do not accept Ellen White.

There is a fundamental belief statement that affirms the work of Ellen White as an example of someone who passed the test of a prophet.

We also believe that Agabus, and Anna in the Temple and Philip's daughters and everyone in 1Cor 14 passed those tests.

This keeps getting repeated - you keep pretending you do not understand "the words".

HP has already stated that he is one that was able to read the words and understand them.

It just does not get any simpler than this.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Bob. i think we all understand your position on the gift of prophecy. What is being sought is would a person be accepted and baptised into your church if they disagreed, not on the gift of prophecy, but on EGW qualifying as being one of those prophets.

In other words, can I be baptised into your congregation if I do not agree that EGW was a qualified prophet? I'm sure you probably have membership classes prior to accepting a person into your congregation. Is the subject of EGW part of these classes and is it a requirement to accept her as a prophet in order to be accepted and baptised?

:godisgood:

 

[BobRyan]

Bob. i think we all understand your position on the gift of prophecy. What is being sought is would a person be accepted and baptised into your church if they disagreed, not on the gift of prophecy, but on EGW qualifying as being one of those prophets.

Yes the would be accepted. In fact that is the case with a large number of Adventists in Europe. But there are also those in the U.S that take that same position.

In other words, can I be baptised into your congregation if I do not agree that EGW was a qualified prophet? I'm sure you probably have membership classes prior to accepting a person into your congregation. Is the subject of EGW part of these classes and is it a requirement to accept her as a prophet in order to be accepted and baptised?

:godisgood:

The membership classes - include the history of both the Millerites and the Adventists, as well as the fact of Ellen White's ministry in the 1800's and early 1900's. (that class also includes the fact of the mistaken predictions made by the Millerites in 1843 and in 1844 and how that lead to the formation of the Adventist church).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Yes the would be accepted. In fact that is the case with a large number of Adventists in Europe. But there are also those in the U.S that take that same position.




The membership classes - include the history of both the Millerites and the Adventists, as well as the fact of Ellen White's ministry in the 1800's and early 1900's. (that class also includes the fact of the mistaken predictions made by the Millerites in 1843 and in 1844 and how that lead to the formation of the Adventist church).

in Christ,

Bob

THanks Bob, that answers my questions. It does sound odd to me though that a SDA would reject EGW. Isn't that like a baptised member of a Menonite Church rejecting Meno? Or one who calls himself a Mormon rejecting the crazy teachings of Joesph Smith?

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

It would be difficult as a Mormon to reject Joseph Smith since a lot of Mormon doctrine comes right out of "Pearl of Great Price" and "Doctrines and Covenants" INSTEAD of "the Book of Mormon"(authored by Samuel Spalding) or the Bible (authored by God).

In the case of Adventists - the doctrines are all presented and tested "Sola Scriptura" without any reliance on anything Ellen White ever said.

Thus it is very easy for people to join on that basis alone. Which is why you see so much of that going on the Adventist church - and none of it going on in the Mormon Church.

in Christ,

Bob