SDA's and Abortion

[targus]

Could a member of the SDA denomination please provide the Scriptural support for the offical SDA guidelines which state that abortion is a matter of personal choice when it comes to the emotional or physical health of the mother or in cases of rape or incest or any of the other exceptions that they list?

Since the SDA claim to be sola scriptura I would hope for an answer which includes Book, Chapter and Verse.

 

[BobRyan]

As far as I know -- I am the only SDA left on this board -- (Moderators - please correct me if I am wrong)

1. The SDA church has no "doctrine on Abortion" other than "thou shalt not kill"

2. The Administrators have at times posted guidelines on social events of the day - but those articles are not a "teaching" of the SDA church. (No SDA {Popes})

You will never attend an evangelistic series OR Bible study of the accepted voted beliefs of the SDA church where it is taught that "Abortion is simply a personal choice".

No such thing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Crabtownboy]

Miscarrage/abortion

Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

:tonofbricks:

 

[Joe]

Here you go-

Similar phamplets (or these phamplets, I can't recall) were left out on a table with other brochures at our SDA church for a while. People kept throwing them away, and complaining so they quit ordering them. Never met an SDA or even heard of one (including my former SDA Pastor) who holds to these beliefs.


http://wm.gc.adventist.org/images/WM Brochures/Church Statements2.pdf

 

[donnA]

Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

:tonofbricks:

Miscarriage doesn't involve the death of a human being?
Well, if the mother is a human being her child is too, no what is that a bunny rabbit, or maybe a kitten, anything but a human being.
I don't know about anyone else, but my children were human beings.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being.

Chapter and verse please!

 

[targus]

As far as I know -- I am the only SDA left on this board -- (Moderators - please correct me if I am wrong)

1. The SDA church has no "doctrine on Abortion" other than "thou shalt not kill"

2. The Administrators have at times posted guidelines on social events of the day - but those articles are not a "teaching" of the SDA church. (No SDA {Popes})

You will never attend an evangelistic series OR Bible study of the accepted voted beliefs of the SDA church where it is taught that "Abortion is simply a personal choice".

No such thing.

in Christ,

Bob

The SDA church maintains a website with "guidelines".

One of the "guidelines" says that "The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman".

The "guidelines" also talk about exceptions to justify abortion.

The net result is that in spite of the supposed "doctrine on Abortion" of "thou shalt not kill" the SDA church still tells it's members that they can have an abortion in good conscience.

Either abortion is killing or it is not - you can't have it both ways.

 

[targus]

As far as I know -- I am the only SDA left on this board -- (Moderators - please correct me if I am wrong)

1. The SDA church has no "doctrine on Abortion" other than "thou shalt not kill"

2. The Administrators have at times posted guidelines on social events of the day - but those articles are not a "teaching" of the SDA church. (No SDA {Popes})

You will never attend an evangelistic series OR Bible study of the accepted voted beliefs of the SDA church where it is taught that "Abortion is simply a personal choice".

No such thing.

in Christ,

Bob

The SDA "guidelines" are not "teaching"?

Sounds like word games to me.

 

[BobRyan]

Here you go-

Similar phamplets (or these phamplets, I can't recall) were left out on a table with other brochures at our SDA church for a while. People kept throwing them away, and complaining so they quit ordering them. Never met an SDA or even heard of one (including my former SDA Pastor) who holds to these beliefs.


http://wm.gc.adventist.org/images/WM Brochures/Church Statements2.pdf

Agreed. These statements are not approved or voted on by the church as are the statements of fundamental beliefs. Nor are those statements presented with Bible proofs. Kinda like "one man's opinion" if you ask me.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA "guidelines" are not "teaching"?

Sounds like word games to me.

I guess if you ignore "all the pesky details" that could be the case.

But if you look for actual doctrine taught by the church as Bible truth and given in our evangelistic meetings as we go into 26 sessions of "exhaustive detail" on what we teach - you will only find "thou shalt not murder".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
(Exodus 21:22-23 KJV)

How do you construe from the above that "One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being."

 

[BobRyan]

Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

:tonofbricks:

Yes but here is the "EASY part". EVEN our government admits that the SAME baby -- if killed OUTSIDE the womb -- is being "murdered".

Seems like "the state knows it is murder" and nobody complains that the "state is wrong about that charge of murder".

So "given that clarity" I don't see how Christians could then be "confused by location" of the baby as the state is -- seems like "the hard question" has already been answered and the state is only balkiing "at politics" not at the topic of "how old must a baby be to be a baby"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Crabtownboy]

Chapter and verse please!

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

When Does Life Begin?


According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I may be wrong but I do not believe the Bible ever uses the word 'abortion.' By the way I have not said that I am either for or against abortion. I am just pointing out what the Bible says. The verse in Exodus is the only one that I can find that even comes close to addressing abortion and even that that is a stretch. Abortion is not a simple issue.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
(Exodus 21:22-23 KJV)

How do you construe from the above that "One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being."

 

[Palatka51]

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

When Does Life Begin?


According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

You do realize that there is no such word as "personhood" don't you?
However if you are looking for a better word then you'd say individual. But you can't say that because an individual has rights don't they? Now that baby is indeed an individual in that if you yourself were at the last term of your mother's pregnancy (or in any term FTM) were turned in the womb by your Dr, grabbed by your legs and pulled by your feet through the birth canal to the base of your neck, stabbed in the back of the neck severing your spinal cord and then a vacuum tube inserted into the skull to suck out your brain. You, Crabtownboy, would not be here debating this thread. You, Crabtownboy, would never have taken a breath. Your, Crabtownboy, body would have been thrown into the bio hazard trash bin, wrapped in a plastic trash bag and thrown into the hospital's incinerator.
Yeah, great individual rights we (these United States) have.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Now that you have relieved yourself through an emotional tirade step back and look at my post from the Bible. Your argument is with the Bible, not me. I have not expressed my opinion. :tonofbricks:

You do realize that there is no such word as "personhood" don't you?
However if you are looking for a better word then you'd say individual. But you can't say that because an individual has rights don't they? Now that baby is indeed an individual in that if you yourself were at the last term of your mother's pregnancy (or in any term FTM) were turned in the womb by your Dr, grabbed by your legs and pulled by your feet through the birth canal to the base of your neck, stabbed in the back of the neck severing your spinal cord and then a vacuum tube inserted into the skull to suck out your brain. You, Crabtownboy, would not be here debating this thread. You, Crabtownboy, would never have taken a breath. Your, Crabtownboy, body would have been thrown into the bio hazard trash bin, wrapped in a plastic trash bag and thrown into the hospital's incinerator.
Yeah, great individual rights we (these United States) have.

 

[Palatka51]

Now that you have relieved yourself through an emotional tirade step back and look at my post from the Bible. Your argument is with the Bible, not me. I have not expressed my opinion. :tonofbricks:

I tend to react that way when one uses the Bible to defend murders and many more of us had better start getting angry.

Now lets do look at the verse that you have based your view.
Exodus 21:22-25
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

This scripture is very clear A LIFE FOR A LIFE! Her husband is to have him arrested and brought before the judges. Then the judge is to determine first of all LIFE FOR LIFE! Then the judgment is reduced by degrees as this tragic loss of life just might have happened by accident.

My argument is not with God's Word it is with those who stand back and let this nation whaler in the blood of 49 million innocent lives that call out to God Almighty for justice. :tear:

 

[Crabtownboy]

The life that the man must pay for with his life is the mother's life, not the fetus. And the Bible says if a man strive to hurt a woman. It is a stretch to say that means a medical abortion.

Frankly I am not arguing against abortion, but it is impossible to build a antiabortion case using the Bible. I think abortions are horrible and wish none ever occurred.

I do have a question. If abortions were illegal, how much time in jail should the woman serve who had one? And how much time in jail should the father be given for putting the woman in that position?

Now lets do look at the verse that you have based your view.
Exodus 21:22-25
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

This scripture is very clear A LIFE FOR A LIFE! Her husband is to have him arrested and brought before the judges. Then the judge is to determine first of all LIFE FOR LIFE! Then the judgment is reduced by degrees as this tragic loss of life just might have happened by accident.

As I said above, it is the life of the mother that the man pays for, not the life of the fetus. And, as I said in an earlier the Bible says that human life begins with the first breath. I have not bee particularaly happy with this, but it is there in the Bible and so ..........................

 

[Palatka51]

The life that the man must pay for with his life is the mother's life, not the fetus. And the Bible says if a man strive to hurt a woman. It is a stretch to say that means a medical abortion.

I do have a question. If abortions were illegal, how much time in jail should the woman serve who had one? And how much time in jail should the father be given for putting the woman in that position?

Exodus 21:22
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Notice that the woman is hurt and the fruit has died. The woman is alive and the child is dead. The issue is the death of the unborn child and the justice to be rendered for it's death.
You and I are the fruit of our mother's womb and we are precious in our mother's sight. More importantly though is that we are the fruit of God and are precious in His eyes. How precious are we? Well I'm glad you asked. We are so precious that He sent His Son to Die for us.
I would die for my children wouldn't you?
It is mind boggling that anyone wouldn't.

Frankly I am not arguing against abortion, but it is impossible to build a antiabortion case using the Bible.

No, you are arguing for it. That's been made perfectly clear.

I think abortions are horrible and wish none ever occurred.

Now that's in stark contradiction to what you just said. However you are very right here and may we all have the same attitude.

 

[BobRyan]

The life that the man must pay for with his life is the mother's life, not the fetus. And the Bible says if a man strive to hurt a woman. It is a stretch to say that means a medical abortion.

Frankly I am not arguing against abortion, but it is impossible to build a antiabortion case using the Bible. I think abortions are horrible and wish none ever occurred.

I do have a question. If abortions were illegal, how much time in jail should the woman serve who had one? And how much time in jail should the father be given for putting the woman in that position?

You are missing the point. The State has ALREADY said that the SAME baby (fetus as you call it) that is killed OUTSIDE the womb brings upon the murderer the charge of the crime of Murder.

Basically that part "has been settled".

The only issue is whether Christians will pretend to be sooo confused as to say that the same Baby killed OUTSIDE the womb may be killed INSIDE without incurring the SAME charge of Murder. (The crime for killing the SAME baby at the SAME time in either case.)

This is really easy when you look at the facts.

in Christ,

Bob