SDA's and Abortion

[Crabtownboy]

How technical shall we become? The Bible says human life begins with the first breath. So, if the infant has taken a breath than it would surely be murder.

I wish the Bible were expressedly clear concerning abortion, but it isn't. Now why not address my questions posted above?

The American Heritage Dictionarey defines fetus as:

In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

The only issue is whether Christians will pretend to be sooo confused as to say that the same Baby killed OUTSIDE the womb may be killed INSIDE without incurring the SAME charge of Murder.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

I guess if you ignore "all the pesky details" that could be the case.

But if you look for actual doctrine taught by the church as Bible truth and given in our evangelistic meetings as we go into 26 sessions of "exhaustive detail" on what we teach - you will only find "thou shalt not murder".

in Christ,

Bob

Pesky details?

You say that the doctrine taught is "thou shalt not murder" but the offical "guidelines" then say that murdering the unborn is ok sometimes.

Why would the SDA give guidelines which conflict with Scripture and God's Commandments?

As you say... a pesky detail.

 

[targus]

Yes but here is the "EASY part". EVEN our government admits that the SAME baby -- if killed OUTSIDE the womb -- is being "murdered".

Seems like "the state knows it is murder" and nobody complains that the "state is wrong about that charge of murder".

So "given that clarity" I don't see how Christians could then be "confused by location" of the baby as the state is -- seems like "the hard question" has already been answered and the state is only balkiing "at politics" not at the topic of "how old must a baby be to be a baby"

in Christ,

Bob

This is surreal.

You talk about the clarity of abortion as murder and at the same time your SDA denomination tells it's members that abortion is ok.

Why don't you just admit that the SDA "guidelines" that condone abortion are simply contrary to Scripture and God's Commands and condemn them rather that double talking your way around this.

Is abortion ever not murder?
If so under what circumstances?
What scripture backs it up?

 

[BobRyan]

I don't defend "opions" of various SDAs that I think are wrong -- either here or to them directly.

How is that confusing??

I only support the ACTUAL doctrinal statements of the Church --

seems clear enough to me.

If you are asking if I whine and complain to denominational Administrators about these "individual opinions" that get published on denominational sites from time to time -- that are wrong -- the answer is "yes I do".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

This is surreal.

You talk about the clarity of abortion as murder and at the same time your SDA denomination tells it's members that abortion is ok.

Why don't you just admit that the SDA "guidelines" that condone abortion are simply contrary to Scripture and God's Commands and condemn them rather that double talking your way around this.

Is abortion ever not murder?
If so under what circumstances?
What scripture backs it up?

He did condemn the SDA's beliefs by stating his own. Why ask him if he views it as murder? He already stated his beliefs

 

[Joe]

Abortion is morally wrong because it is morally wrong to murder a person made in the image and likeness of God.
Ge. 9:5-6; Ex. 20:13; 21:12, 14, 22-23; 23:7; Le. 24:17; Nu. 35:31; De. 5:17; 27:25


From the moment of conception, an unborn baby is a distinct person made in the image and likeness of God. God forms a person in the womb, not a non-person.
Job 10:8-12; 31:15; 34:19; Ps. 139:12-19; Is. 49:1,5; Jer. 1;5

David was a person from the moment of his conception Ps. 51:5

Job was a person from the moment of his conception Job 3:3
John the Baptist was a person while in his mother's womb Lk. 1:13-17, 39-44. 


God calls some people to His future service while they are yet in the womb Isa.49:1,5; Jer. 1:5; Lk. 1:13-17

God hates "hands that shed innocent blood" Pr. 6:17

 

[targus]

I don't defend "opions" of various SDAs that I think are wrong -- either here or to them directly.

How is that confusing??

I only support the ACTUAL doctrinal statements of the Church --

seems clear enough to me.

If you are asking if I whine and complain to denominational Administrators about these "individual opinions" that get published on denominational sites from time to time -- that are wrong -- the answer is "yes I do".

in Christ,

Bob

So the offical guidelines published at the offical website of the General Conference of the SDA is simply a collection of "opinions" of various SDA's?

Even though the site says they are "statements and guidelines discussed, approved and voted by the church leadership since 1980"?

 

[targus]

He did condemn the SDA's beliefs by stating his own. Why ask him if he views it as murder? He already stated his beliefs

I ask because in another thread he said that the life of the mother superceeds the life of the unborn child.

I asked him at that time for Scripture to back it up and he did not provide it.

I am also trying to discover what other exceptions he would allow for when it comes to killing the unborn.

 

[Joe]

The life of the mother can, under very rare circumstances, superceed the life of the child. To my knowledge, scripture is absent upon this. So we're left with doing what is best for the common good. Consider what would further God's will under the authority of the scripture we do have.

 

[Palatka51]

The Bible says human life begins with the first breath. So, if the infant has taken a breath than it would surely be murder.

So, are you saying that life does not begin until that child takes a breath of air?
So, are you saying that the intaking of air (Oxygen, Carbon dioxide, Argon, methane and all the other ingredients) is what constitues a human soul?
Show me by the Bible where it says that this is so.
Where does the Bible say that human life begins with a first breath?
If it is by breath then a dog contains the same soul that I posses and Christ died for the both of us.

Then with the above logic we can say that this is not a viable human life then.
Luke1:31
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

 

[billwald]

>The life that the man must pay for with his life is the mother's life, not the fetus. And the Bible says if a man strive to hurt a woman. It is a stretch to say that means a medical abortion.

If a man intends to do harm it is a property crime but if the purpose is to help the woman then it is murder?

 

[BobRyan]

I ask because in another thread he said that the life of the mother superceeds the life of the unborn child.

I stand by that -- btw.

If the mother's life is at risk such that this is a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the Baby -- bye bye baby - we shall meet in heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

The life of the mother can, under very rare circumstances, superceed the life of the child. To my knowledge, scripture is absent upon this. So we're left with doing what is best for the common good. Consider what would further God's will under the authority of the scripture we do have.

that is true.

That would be a case of taking an action that is going to cost the life of one person or the other person -- God does not command - "you can not choose to save the mother".

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

If one kills an unborn child, it is murder. If the mother does not survive the birthing process, that is God's will.

 

[Palatka51]

>The life that the man must pay for with his life is the mother's life, not the fetus. And the Bible says if a man strive to hurt a woman. It is a stretch to say that means a medical abortion.

If a man intends to do harm it is a property crime but if the purpose is to help the woman then it is murder?

Nope that is not what the Bible says.

Exodus 21:22
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Notice that the woman is hurt and the fruit has died. The woman is alive and the child is dead. The issue is the death of the unborn child and the justice to be rendered for it's death.
You and I are the fruit of our mother's womb and we are precious in our mother's sight. More importantly though is that we are the fruit of God and are precious in His eyes. How precious are we? Well I'm glad you asked. We are so precious that He sent His Son to Die for us.
I would die for my children wouldn't you?
It is mind boggling that anyone wouldn't.

Then again in post #17

Exodus 21:22-25
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

This scripture is very clear A LIFE FOR A LIFE! Her husband is to have him arrested and brought before the judges. Then the judge is to determine first of all LIFE FOR LIFE! Then the judgment is reduced by degrees as this tragic loss of life just might have happened by accident.

 

[targus]

I stand by that -- btw.

If the mother's life is at risk such that this is a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the Baby -- bye bye baby - we shall meet in heaven.

Your scriptural support for this?

What other exceptions listed in the "offical guidelines" do you accept? In the case of rape? Incest? Emotional well being of the mother?

Since the SDA is supposedly sola scriptura you would think that there should be Bible verses to back up the SDA position on this.

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

I may be wrong but I do not believe the Bible ever uses the word 'abortion.' By the way I have not said that I am either for or against abortion. I am just pointing out what the Bible says. The verse in Exodus is the only one that I can find that even comes close to addressing abortion and even that that is a stretch. Abortion is not a simple issue.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Joe]

When our Soldiers invade a Country which has not attacked us personally we don't call it murder. In fact, we salute them (This is not to be taken as if I don't support the troops). They are willing to risk their life for ours raying: yet we know in the process, many of our troops killed other innocent men, even Christian men.

Death row inmates are put to death yet we usually don't consider it murder either. Not all deliberate killings are murder imo



A scinereo

A Christian foster mother of two very tough children with medical issues becomes pregnant. She learns her baby will be born with not only birth defects & abnormalities but will likely endure a very short life span marred with horrific pain. A vegetable....

She get's into a car accident, and there is no time to save both of their lives, yet somehow they learn if she gives birth, she will certainly die.
Docs tend to the Mother's health first, and with her consent, she decides to abort the baby right then.
The Foster kids with have severe medical and mental issues have their mother back who cares and loves them deeply instead of being placed in an hospital like institutional setting (which usually happens in our area to the Vegetable type humans). This mother cared enough to save herself for the sake of her two special needs kids and to prevent her own baby from living a short life of hell on earth.

 

[Palatka51]

When our Soldiers invade a Country which has not attacked us personally we don't call it murder. In fact, we salute them (This is not to be taken as if I don't support the troops). They are willing to risk their life for ours raying: yet we know in the process, many of our troops killed other innocent men, even Christian men.

Death row inmates are put to death yet we usually don't consider it murder either. Not all deliberate killings are murder imo



A scinereo

A Christian foster mother of two very tough children with medical issues becomes pregnant. She learns her baby will be born with not only birth defects & abnormalities but will likely endure a very short life span marred with horrific pain. A vegetable....

She get's into a car accident, and there is no time to save both of their lives, yet somehow they learn if she gives birth, she will certainly die.
Docs tend to the Mother's health first, and with her consent, she decides to abort the baby right then.
The Foster kids with have severe medical and mental issues have their mother back who cares and loves them deeply instead of being placed in an hospital like institutional setting (which usually happens in our area to the Vegetable type humans). This mother cared enough to save herself for the sake of her two special needs kids and to prevent her own baby from living a short life of hell on earth.

And this is why different judgments are determined. God's Word is sufficient for all things that this life has to offer.
This mother would be very courages IMHO.

 

[targus]

I stand by that -- btw.

If the mother's life is at risk such that this is a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the Baby -- bye bye baby - we shall meet in heaven.

So far you have provided no scripture to back up your denominations acceptance of abortion.

SDA claim to be sola scriptura...