SDA's and Abortion

[targus]

Are you talking 2 days after or 20 weeks after?

If you have a different answer for each - why don't you give us both?

 

[targus]

Bob Ryan, you have gone suspiciously quiet on this topic.

Are you unwilling to answer a couple of very basic questions in a direct manner?

 

[BobRyan]

My daughter and I debate the finer details of this topic all the time. She tends to take the side closer what Targus argues.

As I pointed out at the start 'opinions may vary'.

One thing I NEVER see is someone trying to argue her out of her POV saying "that's is not SDA doctrine" - everyone seems to know the difference.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If you have a different answer for each - why don't you give us both?

Even 2 days after and at the "zygote stage" as mentioned in my earlier post - I think it should be taken only after serious consideration.

But going back to my "keeping it at the obvious level" statement on page one - when it get's to the point that the state would consider any action taken against the Baby to be "murder" as long as that same Baby is located outside the mother -- then I am against killing period. I think it is silly to argue that killing the same person is not murder just because of the location of the person.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Even 2 days after and at the "zygote stage" as mentioned in my earlier post - I think it should be taken only after serious consideration.

But going back to my "keeping it at the obvious level" statement on page one - when it get's to the point that the state would consider any action taken against the Baby to be "murder" as long as that same Baby is located outside the mother -- then I am against killing period. I think it is silly to argue that killing the same person is not murder just because of the location of the person.

in Christ,

Bob

So your position on abortion is subject to the state?

If you where in China then you would have no problem with abortion at any date and would even be willing to kill the child for some period of time after birth?

If not - why let the state called USA make the decision for you but not the state called China?

What does the decision of the state have to do with Scripture and sin?

And where is your scriptural support for all this?

 

[Ed Edwards]

So your position on abortion is subject to the state?
...
And where is your scriptural support for all this?

IMHO it is not necessary for a fellow debater to have to find scriptural support for the conclusion you (Targus) jumped to -- excuse me: for you (Targus ) jumping to a conclusion.

I find no support in anybody's (all) statements that warrent a question like: //So your position on abortion is subject to the state?//

 

[Ed Edwards]

Even 2 days after and at the "zygote stage" as mentioned in my earlier post - I think it should be taken only after serious consideration.

But going back to my "keeping it at the obvious level" statement on page one - when it get's to the point that the state would consider any action taken against the Baby to be "murder" as long as that same Baby is located outside the mother -- then I am against killing period. I think it is silly to argue that killing the same person is not murder just because of the location of the person.

in Christ,
Bob

Amen, Brother BobRyan -- Preach it! (what BobRyan said) :thumbs:

Obviously you are more anti-abortion than I am -- but than so are a lot of other Christian folks. So I'm sticking with my 'Amen!'

 

[targus]

IMHO it is not necessary for a fellow debater to have to find scriptural support for the conclusion you (Targus) jumped to -- excuse me: for you (Targus ) jumping to a conclusion.

I find no support in anybody's (all) statements that warrent a question like: //So your position on abortion is subject to the state?//

I was merely asking for confirmation of what I understood his words to mean.

"...when it get's to the point that the state would consider any action taken against the Baby to be "murder" as long as that same Baby is located outside the mother -- then I am against killing period."

I jumped to no conclusion other than the plain meaning of his words.

Do you interpret his words to mean something different?

 

[BobRyan]

So your position on abortion is subject to the state?

If you where in China then you would have no problem with abortion at any date and would even be willing to kill the child for some period of time after birth?

If not - why let the state called USA make the decision for you but not the state called China?

What does the decision of the state have to do with Scripture and sin?

Less smoke -- more fire please.

As I stated "I am going with the obvious".

Given that "even the state" recognizes the case of murder with these infants born long before the full 9 month term -- I am arguing that we should all be able to at least get to that minimum agreement.

You on the other hand seem to be wildly casting about you seeking to find "war" in every statement posted that is not in complete agreement with your opinion.

I am simply not going there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Less smoke -- more fire please.

As I stated "I am going with the obvious".

Given that "even the state" recognizes the case of murder with these infants born long before the full 9 month term -- I am arguing that we should all be able to at least get to that minimum agreement.

You on the other hand seem to be wildly casting about you seeking to find "war" in every statement posted that is not in complete agreement with your opinion.

I am simply not going there.

in Christ,

Bob

No seeking to find war with every statement - just trying to get a direct answer.

At this point it seems that the SDA "doctrine" is "Thou shalt not kill".

So far so good.

Now I'm wondering how that relates to the "opinions" both on the SDA website and your own which seem to suggest that abortion is acceptable under some circumstances.

Correct me if I misunderstand - but your opinion seems to be that abortion for some circumstances prior to some date in the development of the baby before birth is acceptable?

If I have it correct, then I would be interested in the Scripture that allows for this distinction contrary to the doctrine "Thou shalt not kill..

 

[BobRyan]

"opinions" don't get run through the doctrinal review that the SDA doctrinal statements have --

When my daughter expresses views very similar to yours on the moment of the soul during the birth process -- we discuss the subject "enthusiastically" but neither one accuses the other "of not being SDA".

As I argue the point with my daughter - I believe in saving the mother if it comes down to such a choice. If you are talking about the "two-day window" then I would agree to more discretionary choice than in later term scenarios.

Opinions may vary.

My daughter and I choose to agree to disagree agree-ably.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

"opinions" don't get run through the doctrinal review that the SDA doctrinal statements have --

When my daughter expresses views very similar to yours on the moment of the soul during the birth process -- we discuss the subject "enthusiastically" but neither one accuses the other "of not being SDA".

As I argue the point with my daughter - I believe in saving the mother if it comes down to such a choice. If you are talking about the "two-day window" then I would agree to more discretionary choice than in later term scenarios.

Opinions may vary.

My daughter and I choose to agree to disagree agree-ably.

in Christ,

Bob

I never accused you "of not being SDA".

I am simply just trying to get an answer to a simple question.

Again... If the doctrine is "Thou shalt not kill" what Scriptural support is there for the exceptions?

You can answer the question as it applies to your personal opinion if you prefer.

If there is no Scriptural support for your opinion just say so and I will be happy to drop it.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Self defense in the case of a person who threatens the life of another person.

2. There is the issue of zygote vs actual body for the soul. My skin cells may be complete living cells - but I do not hold a funeral for one if it should perish. It has the same DNA as the Zygote. But of course viewing it this way is "opinion".

Hint: the Bible does not take such a fine-grained stand on microbiology.

As I stated before - "opinions may vary".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

If someone in our congregation 'loses' a baby, we have a funeral or graveside service and a proper burial with a headstone.

People can call "it" whatever they want, but God knows that "it" is a baby from the moment of conception.

We have had several women that were told they needed to abort to save their own lives. They refused, and not only survived, but gave birth to healthy babies.

When a woman aborts...for whatever reason...she is leaving God out of the equation.

 

[targus]

1. Self defense in the case of a person who threatens the life of another person.

2. There is the issue of zygote vs actual body for the soul. My skin cells may be complete living cells - but I do not hold a funeral for one if it should perish. It has the same DNA as the Zygote. But of course viewing it this way is "opinion".

Hint: the Bible does not take such a fine-grained stand on microbiology.

As I stated before - "opinions may vary".

in Christ,

Bob

1. It is interesting that in point one you refer to the unborn child as a "person" but then in point two wish to say that the unborn child does not have a body?

2. On what basis do you decide that a zygote does not have a body? It is living and growing by any definition of the words.

Again 2. The difference being that your skin cell would never grow naturally into a complete person if left unmolested as would a zygote. Even long dead cells have DNA so that isn't really the determining factor is it?

Opinons may vary, but I would hope that a Christian would have an opinion that is consistent with scriptural teaching. So far you haven't offered me any throughout this discussion.

It would be nice if you addressed some of the other exceptions that I have mentioned... rape, incest, the emotional well being of the mother, medical conditions of the unborn.

Does the zygote-body logic apply in those circumstances too?

 

[BobRyan]

I agree completely that a cytoblast is a cell body and a zygote is a cell body - so also my skin cells and finger nail cells. And the single cell zygote - just like all of my skin cells - has a full set of 46 chromasomes. The question is - does a skin cell have it's own soul, it's own personhood from God.

From single cell zygote to 16 cell morula (3 days after conception) one may find a comparable single cell or even a 16 celled organism in the body of any child or human. If you peer down at this 16-celled life form we are amazed that God is able to continue building this out until eventually a human body forms.

But am I going to refer to every single cell or every group of 16-cells found in the human body as "a different person"? Probably not -- but that is just my opinion. It could be wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

A baby is a blessing from God and it is the 'fruit of our womb'. Your skin cells and finger nail cells are not...

Aren't you glad no one ABORTED you???

 

[BobRyan]

Glad that no one aborted "me the person" the living soul. But I doubt that my soul is made up of "DNA" or that every cell in my body "with DNA" is it's own soul.

I think you would agree.

In the Bible (Psalms) the concept is there "A body you have prepared for ME".

The zygote - single cell is not it. Rather the human body, fingers, toes etc is prepared for the "living soul". God formed man out of the dust of the earth AND breathed into him the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul.

When I "argue from the obvious" that this process is for dead sure complete by the time that a baby (even one born premature) is said to be "murdered" if it is born and then killed. Location of the baby does not matter - murder is murder.

And it is likely that this is true even at earlier stages where the state would not be so quick to see it as murder "outside the mother". But that get's into gray areas going all the way back to a single-celled zygote. My argument is not for abortion - but I also have a hard time arguing that single celled organism "are little people". And I freely admit this is simply an "opinion statement" on my part -- I could be wrong. It is one person's opinion. As I said - my daughter does not share this "opinion" with me.

I have trillions of single-cells with DNA -- I am not inclinded to view each one as "it's own person". However each of them has a full set of DNA and IF you were to release the enzymes/catalysts that "trigger the DNA" to start mapping an entire human frame - then any one of them has the code and if activated could be "plugged into" an incubation environment to complete the structural program already set in motion. If you could turn on the code in that case I would still "be me" - I would not become "half a soul" neither would the resulting identical twin be "another me" nor even a "soul-less me" as science fiction writers like to imagine. It would be another complete person just like the identical twins born in real life.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

I agree completely that a cytoblast is a cell body and a zygote is a cell body - so also my skin cells and finger nail cells. And the single cell zygote - just like all of my skin cells - has a full set of 46 chromasomes. The question is - does a skin cell have it's own soul, it's own personhood from God.

You have it backwards.

The question is not "does a skin cell have it's own soul?"

The relevant question is "does a zygote have a soul?"

And you can't know that. But we do know that left unmolested it will continue to grow to a mature human person.

From single cell zygote to 16 cell morula (3 days after conception) one may find a comparable single cell or even a 16 celled organism in the body of any child or human. If you peer down at this 16-celled life form we are amazed that God is able to continue building this out until eventually a human body forms.

But am I going to refer to every single cell or every group of 16-cells found in the human body as "a different person"? Probably not -- but that is just my opinion. It could be wrong.

Again your logic is backwards.

No one is saying that every group of 16 cell is a "different person". But certainly every zygote made up of as few as 16 cells is "a different person."

Every single person living or who has ever lived was at some point only 16 cells in size.

I can't help but notice that you don't really answer direct questions.

Do you accept the other exceptions to "Thou shalt not kill" such as in the case of rape, incest, the emotional well being of the mother, and medical conditions in the unborn?

And as I have asked so many times before...

What is your scriptural support for these "opinons".

 

[targus]

BobRayan,

In the interest of wrapping this up:

SDA doctrine is "Thou shalt not kill"

Bob Rayan's opinion is that killing the unborn at the early stages is o.k. because that unborn child does not have a "body" and therefore no soul. I am assuming your silence to my other questions to mean that you also accept all the other exceptions to "Thou shalt no kill" at this stage of the unborn child's development. Correct?

Bob Rayan's opion is also that killing the unborn at any time is o.k. to save the life of the mother due to a biblical admonishment to "spare the life" of others. Although you never did explain why "sparing the life" of the unborn is not considered in that context.

Do I have it right?