Sealed Forever

[skypair]

Do you not realize that in your own system, the same problematic questions can be raised?

Let's see...

For example, it could be asked of you, "If God, really loves everyone on the face of the earth, past, present, & future, then why did he allow Satan to fall? To become the great deceiver? Why hell?

Satan fell because God is seeking those who will worship Him of their own free will. But FREE means that there are options and "vanity" (Rom 8:20) -- self-pride -- was inescapeable. The question to ALL His creatures is "What will you do with Me/Jesus?" YOU choose.

Why allow Satan to be the great deceiver? There is an unresolved issue, james -- of God's mercy and righteousness. Why should the "good angels" stick around? To this day the angels are looking into all this and praising God all the more for His righteousness and mercy!

If your view of foreknowledge is correct, that God chose those who He knew would believe before the foundation of the world, then in that view, He also created hell KNOWING who would be there as well. In light of that, it could be asked, Would it not be more loving to have not allowed their existence at all, than to let them be born, Him having known that they would be cast into the hell He created?

You're getting your events out of order, james. 1) Hell was created for Satan and his angels/demons. 2) That men go there shows that men have a free will and ability, like the angels, to choose whose to side with. 3) As to not letting them be born, that too demonstrates that you misunderstand foreknowledge. Because it is OUR decision to accept or reject Jesus, it was unknown to God before He foresaw us -- until there was something to foresee in us -- which we would choose.

The first part of the question you raised can be debated from Scripture, the second part, that is, what would be more to His glory, is not up to us to determine, but to God, for it is certain that all of the things I mentioned are in Scripture, that is, Satan, Hell, Sinners being cast there & the most of humanity at that. We could say, Well, if God had just saved the whole world, that would be more to His glory. Apparently not, because the whole world will not be saved & God will still receive maxim glory.

You are injecting a false premise. You are saying that God condemns most for His own glory which we can't "look into." The facts are that 1) the Bible is the REVELATION of God and His motives. To say it is "not for us to determine" is to say that God is somehow deceitful in His program for men and angels.

2) The fact that He WILLS all to be saved but they are not you imply is a function of His decision, not ours. That is a patently false premise and every iota of scripture tells us that. Even if you claim to be "elect" you still have to make a decision for God.

3) "Glory" is why YOU say that God condemns or elects. That is not my "free will" premise at all. Mine says that, like Adam, it is not good for God to be alone -- to not have fellowship of His own kind in heaven. And since God is triune, He created triune man in His image to one day fellowship with Him. BUT only those who desire the same!

skypair

 

[skypair]

TC,

1. That being said (my previous post), when do the "elect" become sealed?

I asked this question wondering if there was any doubt in your mind that the "elect" are sealed before they hear the word.

It has always seemed to be a "critical element" of Calvinism that the "elect" are able, by the indwelling Spirit, to "hear" the gospel.

If that is the case, aren't they "sealed" at that time before hearing the gospel?

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

TC,

I asked this question wondering if there was any doubt in your mind that the "elect" are sealed before they hear the word.

It has always seemed to be a "critical element" of Calvinism that the "elect" are able, by the indwelling Spirit, to "hear" the gospel.

If that is the case, aren't they "sealed" at that time before hearing the gospel?

skypair

Skypair,

If the Bible says that believers are sealed by the Spirit when they believe, then I must echo what the Bible says.

Calvinism does not say a believer is sealed prior to believing the gospel.

 

[jne1611]

Let's see...

Satan fell because God is seeking those who will worship Him of their own free will. But FREE means that there are options and "vanity" (Rom 8:20) -- self-pride -- was inescapeable. The question to ALL His creatures is "What will you do with Me/Jesus?" YOU choose.

Why allow Satan to be the great deceiver? There is an unresolved issue, james -- of God's mercy and righteousness. Why should the "good angels" stick around? To this day the angels are looking into all this and praising God all the more for His righteousness and mercy!

You're getting your events out of order, james. 1) Hell was created for Satan and his angels/demons. 2) That men go there shows that men have a free will and ability, like the angels, to choose whose to side with. 3) As to not letting them be born, that too demonstrates that you misunderstand foreknowledge. Because it is OUR decision to accept or reject Jesus, it was unknown to God before He foresaw us -- until there was something to foresee in us -- which we would choose.

You are injecting a false premise. You are saying that God condemns most for His own glory which we can't "look into." The facts are that 1) the Bible is the REVELATION of God and His motives. To say it is "not for us to determine" is to say that God is somehow deceitful in His program for men and angels.

2) The fact that He WILLS all to be saved but they are not you imply is a function of His decision, not ours. That is a patently false premise and every iota of scripture tells us that. Even if you claim to be "elect" you still have to make a decision for God.

3) "Glory" is why YOU say that God condemns or elects. That is not my "free will" premise at all. Mine says that, like Adam, it is not good for God to be alone -- to not have fellowship of His own kind in heaven. And since God is triune, He created triune man in His image to one day fellowship with Him. BUT only those who desire the same!

skypair

He certainly did not create all men to fellowship with under your view, because He foreknew that the majority of them would be in hell for ever. I guess I hoped you would have considered the fact that your concept can be scrutinized by logic as much as any other, but you seem to think otherwise. So, I'll let you be content that you gave a satisfactory answer to the issue.

 

[convicted1]

1. Once the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in a believer, that believer is sealed forever. The believer may fall into sin and even grieve the Spirit, but he is still sealed. He may even "quench the Spirit," but he is still sealed.

2. This seals shows both ownership and security--we who belong to God are His forever (see Eph 1:13, 13; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:21, 22; 1 Thess 5:19).

Bro TC,

I agree with what you posted here, but I am wondering what you mean by "falling into sin"? I believe that once someone is "born again from above", they have a seal placed on their life, period. But I think some believe than if one is a drunkard, adulterer(sp?), whoremonger, etc., they are still saved. Is this what you mean by "falling into sin"? If you do, I don't believe such a one could have ever been saved to start with. I don't mean to be the "fly in the ointment", so to speak, but after one becomes saved, they will withdraw from the things I just mentioned above. These are my thoughts, and I mean no harm in them. I was just wanting some clarification. Okay?

Love,

Willis

 

[TCGreek]

Bro TC,

I agree with what you posted here, but I am wondering what you mean by "falling into sin"? I believe that once someone is "born again from above", they have a seal placed on their life, period. But I think some believe than if one is a drunkard, adulterer(sp?), whoremonger, etc., they are still saved. Is this what you mean by "falling into sin"? If you do, I don't believe such a one could have ever been saved to start with. I don't mean to be the "fly in the ointment", so to speak, but after one becomes saved, they will withdraw from the things I just mentioned above. These are my thoughts, and I mean no harm in them. I was just wanting some clarification. Okay?

Love,

Willis

1. Consider Gal 6:1 about "falling into sin." "Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself" (NLTse, emphasis mine).

2. But this doesn't mean that the believer has fallen totally out of favor with God; once a believer is sealed that will never happen.

3. But a believer can and often is overcome by some kind of ensnaring sin.

 

[convicted1]

1. Consider Gal 6:1 about "falling into sin." "Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself" (NLTse, emphasis mine).

2. But this doesn't mean that the believer has fallen totally out of favor with God; once a believer is sealed that will never happen.

3. But a believer can and often is overcome by some kind of ensnaring sin.

Bro TC,

The reason why I asked this question is because I have heard of some who believe that regardless what they do, they are heaven bound....I do not believe this. I mean they believe they can sleep with someone while out of wedlock, or in wedlock(commiting adultrey) and still be saved. Do you believe it this way? I am under the belief that once you have been "borned again", you won't do these things. By the fruit they bare(bear?), you shall know them. Don't get me wrong, I am not preaching myself as "holier than thou", and please don't take it like that....it's just that the desires I had before my conversion, versus after it, are totally different. Sure, I have temptations like anyother human, but I just pray to God to take these things from me. I just don't like hearing someone using salvation(eternally saved), as a liscense(sp?) to sin. I am not syaing you do, but I have heard of some who do.

BTW, do you think someone who gets drunk(drunkard), or commits adultery all the time is saved? I do not. I don't think they had it to start with. In Matthew 7:24-27, there is a MAJOR difference in those who built their house on the ROCK, versus the sand. Those that claim to be CHRISTians and do these things, were the ones who built their house on the sand. Psalms 40:1-4 is a good example of one who has come to CHRIST in the right way, IMHO...of course, Psalms is OT, but it is a good reference to those who were brone again. I love you Bro TC. Please do not take this as a personal attack, because it is not. I just want some clarification. My God bless yo and your home, Bro TC!!

Willis

 

[skypair]

Skypair,

If the Bible says that believers are sealed by the Spirit when they believe, then I must echo what the Bible says.

Calvinism does not say a believer is sealed prior to believing the gospel.

I was just checking. It would seem that the same Spirit that let's them "hear" the gospel would, at the same time He indwelt them for that purpose, seal them.

What you have responded shows scriptural integrity but causes a theological disconnect in that it is the INDWELLING Spirit that seals. If they were merely "filled" AFTER they heard the gospel, there would be no sealing yet and the Spirit could still do His work in redemption.

Of course, the other theological impracticality is that the Spirit would indwell for one second a totally depraved person who hadn't heard, much less accepted, the gospel. I sense these contradictions don't shake your trust in Calvinism's system though, do they?

 

[skypair]

He certainly did not create all men to fellowship with under your view, because He foreknew that the majority of them would be in hell for ever.

james -- my view is that He doesn't know which ones will accept Jesus until He foresees them born and grow up in the future. Because God created mankind as "free moral agents" He cannot omnisciently determine before "pre-viewing" their lives whether they do or don't choose Christ. It is a hard concept for some to grasp that if God designed man sovereign over his/her own life, then He must forego the ability to predetermine what they will believe. However, that is what Rom 8:29 teaches.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

it was unknown to God before He foresaw us -- until there was something to foresee in us -- which we would choose.

So there was something for God to learn, according to your flawed logic. You need to read the Bible. God is all knowing. He has nothing to learn.

This is open theism sky. This is unscriptural. It is not even logical.

 

[TCGreek]

I was just checking. It would seem that the same Spirit that let's them "hear" the gospel would, at the same time He indwelt them for that purpose, seal them.

1. According to Scripture, whenever a person comes to faith, that person is immediately sealed by the Spirit---let me know if Scripture says otherwise.

What you have responded shows scriptural integrity but causes a theological disconnect in that it is the INDWELLING Spirit that seals. If they were merely "filled" AFTER they heard the gospel, there would be no sealing yet and the Spirit could still do His work in redemption.

2. Skypair, I'm speaking of being sealed by the Spirit---and you and I and every other exegete of Scripture can only go with what is revealed. As we both know, the OT says little about the Spirit's activities in this issue.

Of course, the other theological impracticality is that the Spirit would indwell for one second a totally depraved person who hadn't heard, much less accepted, the gospel. I sense these contradictions don't shake your trust in Calvinism's system though, do they?

3. I can only go with what the Scripture says--the person who comes to faith in Christ is sealed by the Spirit.

 

[jne1611]

james -- my view is that He doesn't know which ones will accept Jesus until He foresees them born and grow up in the future. Because God created mankind as "free moral agents" He cannot omnisciently determine before "pre-viewing" their lives whether they do or don't choose Christ. It is a hard concept for some to grasp that if God designed man sovereign over his/her own life, then He must forego the ability to predetermine what they will believe. However, that is what Rom 8:29 teaches.

skypair

Sky,
I'll save my comments for another thread on this subject. I did not mean to take this thread off course. I just thought I would give you something to think about there. I'll see you around.

 

[skypair]

1. According to Scripture, whenever a person comes to faith, that person is immediately sealed by the Spirit---let me know if Scripture says otherwise.

3. I can only go with what the Scripture says--the person who comes to faith in Christ is sealed by the Spirit.

Excellent! Then we reach the same conclusion regarding indwelling and sealing of the Spirit -- that FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION!! See how easy this is going to be?!

So the work and gift of the Spirit come AFTER faith in Christ. And that is exactly what Rom 4:22-5:2 says! 22 "And therefore it [FAITH] was imputed to him for righteousness. 24 But [written] for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,... -- that is, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (5:5).

You're gonna like this perspective of scripture. It's like not having to "run the maze to find the cheese" anymore!! :laugh: Just take out men's (Clavinism's) preconceived notions about man, God, and salvation and read the Bible for yourself!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Sky,
I'll save my comments for another thread on this subject. I did not mean to take this thread off course. I just thought I would give you something to think about there. I'll see you around.

's OK, james. :type:

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Excellent! Then we reach the same conclusion regarding indwelling and sealing of the Spirit -- that FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION!! See how easy this is going to be?!

1. According to Eph 1:13, 14, a person is sealed with the Spirit when she believes--that's what the text says. :thumbs:

So the work and gift of the Spirit come AFTER faith in Christ. And that is exactly what Rom 4:22-5:2 says! 22 "And therefore it [FAITH] was imputed to him for righteousness. 24 But [written] for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,... -- that is, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (5:5).

2. Outside of Rom 5:5 those other verses you quoted says nothing about the Spirit.

3. What they teach is that justification is by faith in Christ and that faith is accredited as righteousness.

4. But with the Spirit in us, we know that God loves us. :thumbs:

You're gonna like this perspective of scripture. It's like not having to "run the maze to find the cheese" anymore!! :laugh: Just take out men's (Clavinism's) preconceived notions about man, God, and salvation and read the Bible for yourself!

skypair

5. What does sealed by the Spirit have to do with Calvin?

 

[skypair]

2. Outside of Rom 5:5 those other verses you quoted says nothing about the Spirit.

Right. They tell us that justification with God (reconciliation) comes by belief and that afterward comes the gift of grace, the Holy Spirit indwelling, which secures our sanctification.

3. What they teach is that justification is by faith in Christ and that faith is accredited as righteousness.

Yes, and "imputed for righteousness" means JUSTIFIED. Look throughout the OT. That is what was said of believers then.

4. But with the Spirit in us, we know that God loves us. :thumbs:

Absolutely! Do you see the difference between justification and grace now? This is the "Grace" era or dispensation because the "ruling factor" of the church period is Holy Spirit indwelling or grace for believers. And it is the first period in which this ruling factor has appeared.

5. What does sealed by the Spirit have to do with Calvin?

Well, how do you see this view of justification-sanctification (2 step church age salvation) compared to the "Grace Doctrines?"

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Right. They tell us that justification with God (reconciliation) comes by belief and that afterward comes the gift of grace, the Holy Spirit indwelling, which secures our sanctification.

1. At the moment of justification, the believer receives the Spirit of adoption.

Yes, and "imputed for righteousness" means JUSTIFIED. Look throughout the OT. That is what was said of believers then.

2. We are both in agreement on this one.

Absolutely! Do you see the difference between justification and grace now? This is the "Grace" era or dispensation because the "ruling factor" of the church period is Holy Spirit indwelling or grace for believers. And it is the first period in which this ruling factor has appeared.

3. Well, according to Paul, we are justified by grace (Rom 3:24).

Well, how do you see this view of justification-sanctification (2 step church age salvation) compared to the "Grace Doctrines?"

skypair

4. The doctrines of grace is what this justification-sanctification look like.

 

[skypair]

1. At the moment of justification, the believer receives the Spirit of adoption.

Yes, in this church age.

3. Well, according to Paul, we are justified by grace (Rom 3:24).

There's a little bit more context than that, TC. 2:22 says faith is given to all who believe. Do you see that? Do you believe that (belief is the cause of faith)?

And in 3:24, the grace is said to be in "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." IOW, grace is "wrapped up" in the redemption" of our saved souls, spirits, and bodies.

As I noted on another thread, salvation/justification had to be determined JUDICIALLY (a price was paid) so that "grace"/sanctification could be GIVEN unmerited.

Too many Christians confuse "grace" that is given daily with salvation that is given eternally. Do you agree?

4. The doctrines of grace is what this justification-sanctification look like.

Actually, I would debate that based on 1) "doctrines of grace" do not distinguish between salvation of the soul and spirit (the former saved to the next life and eternity whereas the latter being saved daily in this life).

2) "Doctrines of grace" do not account for our saving to each member of the trinity of each aspect of man's triunity. God justifies the soul -- the Spirit sanctifies the spirit -- Jesus glorifies the body.

3) Basically, under "doctrines of grace," "grace" = "salvation" as is salvation is free and unconditional via "election" rather than judicial and conditional through Christ.

skypair

 

[jne1611]

There's a little bit more context than that, TC. 2:22 says faith is given to all who believe. Do you see that? Do you believe that (belief is the cause of faith)?


skypair

Sky,
Could you explain what you mean by this. The two words translated "faith" & "believe", seem by definition to indicate the same thing.

Explain your take on this. Specifically how belief is rewarded with faith. Mainly what the difference is.

The reason I bring it up, is the context seems to have the "righteousness of God" at it's center & not "faith", so that he is not saying "faith is given to those that believe", but, "the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ, is given to those who believe". In other words, the righteousness of God is given to one who has faith in Jesus Christ, which defines him as a believer. I see no difference in believing on the Lord Jesus Christ or having faith in him.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[TCGreek]

There's a little bit more context than that, TC. 2:22 says faith is given to all who believe. Do you see that? Do you believe that (belief is the cause of faith)?

1. I don't believe you have the correct reference on 2:22; do you mean Rom 3:22? If so, I don't use the KJV as my primary and I don't see what you're seeing. You'll have to clarify that one for me. :thumbs:

And in 3:24, the grace is said to be in "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." IOW, grace is "wrapped up" in the redemption" of our saved souls, spirits, and bodies.

2. The redemption that is in Christ is a result of God's grace (Eph 1:4-6). Our faith is only possible because of God's grace (Acts 18:27, "When he arrived there, he proved to be of great benefit to those who, by God’s grace, had believed," NLTse).

As I noted on another thread, salvation/justification had to be determined JUDICIALLY (a price was paid) so that "grace"/sanctification could be GIVEN unmerited.

3. You might believe that, but my Bible says that grace comes first to provide me with salvation (Eph 2:4-8; Titus 2:11).

Too many Christians confuse "grace" that is given daily with salvation that is given eternally. Do you agree?

4. We need grace initially and we need grace for the entire journey (Jude 21).

Actually, I would debate that based on 1) "doctrines of grace" do not distinguish between salvation of the soul and spirit (the former saved to the next life and eternity whereas the latter being saved daily in this life).

2) "Doctrines of grace" do not account for our saving to each member of the trinity of each aspect of man's triunity. God justifies the soul -- the Spirit sanctifies the spirit -- Jesus glorifies the body.

3) Basically, under "doctrines of grace," "grace" = "salvation" as is salvation is free and unconditional via "election" rather than judicial and conditional through Christ.

skypair

5. Anyone who is faithful to the study of the Word knows that the redemption of the body comes at the regeneration of all things at the coming of Christ (Rom 8:23).