Secular songs at a Christian concert

[DanielFive]

About as much theology in there as a lot of CCM.

I can see it now, twenty years down the line and we'll be singing Beatles songs in Church.

That's given me a thought...

Scott,

Would you sing the Backstreet Boys song in Church?

God Bless

Enda

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
Sorry I wasn't clear in my post above. What I mean is that 5 genuine conversions are worth more than 20 professions after a concert.

Considering that the majority of them are still active members of that church, I would say that the majority of those decisions were genuine.

Scott, think about what I am saying here before you reply. I am getting tired of making the same points over and over again.

You are making points without Scriptural support, which is all that I am asking for. You have yet to show it.

Firstly, I must admit I didn't realise you believed in total depravity.

Both Calvinists and Arminians believe in Total Depravity. It's one of the common areas. (Although there are some who will deny total depravity merely because Calvinists agree). Wesley and Arminius both advocated total depravity.

You have stated above that the Holy Spirit brought these people to the meeting. You cannot then go on to say 'they will not come' to hear preaching or Christian music, you are limiting the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit uses many different tools. But common sense dictates that there will be a greater turnout among young unchurched people with what we did than if we offered a camp singing liturgical music. It's a quite easy comparison.

In effect you do not rely on the Spirit to draw sinners to the Word, you use secular music.

No. We were relying upon the Spirit when we were deciding how to proceed with our mission trip. We felt that this was how God wanted us to do it. The trip was saturated in prayer.

Getting to the point. Zaccheus came to Jesus for a healing miracle. Jesus used this opportunity to perform a spiritual miracle. Jesus did not sin in any way here.

Zaccheus did not come for a healing miracle. Check again. He came just to see what the hubbub was about. Jesus did a spiritual miracle instead.

If your next door neighbour comes to your door and asks for a cup of sugar I have no objection to you using this as an opportunity to witness to him, in fact I would encourage you to do so.

Scripturally, what is the difference?

This is what it boils down to. You have great rhetoric that goes right down the party line. But what we have failed to see is any type of Scripture to support your view. You advocate an extra-Biblical viewpoint here - it cannot be supported by the Scripture. If you were able to, we would have seen it by now.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Maybe we should agree to disagree?

There are very valid arguments an both sides here. As a music manager at a Christian bookstore for 3 years, I am very familiar with the CCM scene (as well as the modern rock, southern gospel, and modern praise and worship scenes) and see benefits and problems in the system. One of the problems I think is our designation in American society that the music is either "Christian music" or "Secular Music". What about "Secular" music sung by Christians? Are we really naive enough to think that everyone out there singing "Christian" music is a Christian?

Isn't it practical to think that God can use anything to reach a person that He is drawing to Himself? The way I read the Gospels, Jesus met people where they were for healing or spiritual rebirth. He could have healed all of them from a house in Galilee. But instead He went to where they were, and touched them in their circumstance.

I don't know where I stand on this issue. Both Scott and Enda have made very valid arguments, and I will be praying about where God wants me on this. But I do know this: God can use whatever He wants, from Michael W. Smith to Creed to reach a lost person. To think otherwise is to put God in a box, or so is my humble opinion.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Joshua Rhodes:
Isn't it practical to think that God can use anything to reach a person that He is drawing to Himself? The way I read the Gospels, Jesus met people where they were for healing or spiritual rebirth. He could have healed all of them from a house in Galilee. But instead He went to where they were, and touched them in their circumstance.

But I do know this: God can use whatever He wants, from Michael W. Smith to Creed to reach a lost person. To think otherwise is to put God in a box, or so is my humble opinion.

That is it, Joshua! We have to be sensitive to the directino of the Spirit. If our group believes that God was leading us in this way, and if God honored our obedience by drawing sinners to believe in His name, then who is enda to say that we have sinned without providing any Biblical evidence?!?

It is sad when people place God in a box. It is unfortunate that so many people do.

 

[Travelsong]

I suppose I am indifferent on this issue, but I am positive "You Don't Own Me" is an awful song to use when trying to draw people to Jesus. There is no way the Holy Spirit led anyone to endorse that song.

 

[DanielFive]

That is it, Joshua! We have to be sensitive to the directino of the Spirit. If our group believes that God was leading us in this way, and if God honored our obedience by drawing sinners to believe in His name, then who is enda to say that we have sinned without providing any Biblical evidence?!?

You are right we do have to be sensitive to the direction of the Spirit. We must also be wise to the temptations of the devil.

You believe God led you to sing a Backstreet Boys song. You're even farther gone than I thought you were. What kind of Christian blames God for his sin. The Holy Spirit doesn't lead us into sin, how foolish of you to suggest He does.

I'll save you the bother of your next post, I'll do it for you....

Enda,

There you go again accusing me of sin without providing any scriptural proof. The burden of proof remains on you to show that I have sinned.

My reply...

Scott,

I have already shown how the lyrics of the aforementioned song were sinful. It should be obvious to you if you any wisdom that you should not be singing this song let alone using it as a tool for evangelism. You go even farther by saying that God directed you to use it.

No doubt you performed the song well to a large audience of teenage girls, I can see you now...

"Cause you are, my fire,
The one, desire,
Believe, when I say,
I want it that way

But we, are two worlds apart,
Can't reach to your heart,
When you say,
That, I want it that way....

Am I, your fire,
Your one, desire,
Yes I know, it's too late,
But I want it that way

Tell me why,
Ain't nothin' but a heartache,
Tell me why,
Ain't nothin' but a mistake,
Tell me why,
I never wanna hear you say,
I want it that way

Now I can see that we're falling apart,
>From the way that it used to be, Yeah,
No matter the distance,
I want you to know,
That deep down inside of me...

You are, my fire,
The one, desire,
You are
You are,
You are,
You are...


Scott, you might be sensitive to the direction of the spirit but it's certainly not the Holy Spirit. One method of discernment I use is if you feel led to sin, thats usually what we call temptation. If you yield then you can't say "God honoured our obedience".

Proverbs 11:23 The DESIRE of the righteous is only good.

Souls may have been saved that day in Germany, I pray that they were, that doesn't mean God approved of your method of evangelism it just means that He reached the lost in spite of you.

I'll say it again, we must not do evil that good may come of it.

I'll direct you again to 1Cor 1 as I did a few weeks ago. This is a perfect opportunity to apply this Scripture again.

v21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

v22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

v23 But we preach Christ crucified , unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.

Here we see the apostle Paul faced with a predicament similar to your own. The Jews and the Greeks like the German youth are not interested in the Gospel, in fact it is a stumblingblock to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks.

What does Paul do in this case? Does he give the Jews the miracles that they want to see, surely this will draw a large crowd. Does he engage in intellectual philosophical debate with the Greeks, speaking to them as they speak to each other, again he could be sure that he would be heard by large numbers by doing so. Paul resists the temptation to entertain or make a show of himself, he preaches the simple gospel message and we know that his ministry was richly blessed by the Lord, yes here we see real obedience in action, and the reward for this obedience.

Your predicament - the German youth have no interest in the Gospel (maybe it is foolishness to them or even a stumblingblock.) What they want is not Christian music, no, they can't relate to that, it is 'foreign' to them.

What are you to do, you're not sure, maybe it wouldn't hurt to give them a little of what they want, get the crowd in, then we'll get them with the Gospel. Sounds OK, we'll pray about it...

Yes, we 'feel led' to take this path, never mind that its contrary to the Word of God, who says that the Holy Spirit never contradicts Himself? We'll go ahead anyway, anyhow I love the Backstreet Boys it'll be such a laugh.....

Oh the young one's are professing faith, how the Lord has blessed our obedience, lets go on the Baptist Board and tell everyone how the Lord is using us.... etc etc etc.

Scott, you must think I get a kick out of accusing you of sin, do you think I have nothing else to do but sit here and tolerate your sarcasm, well perhaps you know how I feel now. Remember....I wouldn't be accusing you of sin if you didn't come on here and boast about it. Worse than that you are advising a Brother to follow your example, well pardon me but I think we have a duty to look out for one another and I appreciate that Joshua is giving this issue proper consideration, I'm just making sure he hears both sides of the argument.

God Bless

Enda

PS You didn't answer the question in my last post.

 

[DanielFive]

Would you sing the Backstreet Boys song in Church?

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Thanks Enda... just letting you know that I am hearing both sides... and I feel your point is also VERY valid. You both are hugely passionate, and that is a wonderful quality when the passion is focused toward the one and only God, the Creator of everything. Again, thanks.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
You believe God led you to sing a Backstreet Boys song. You're even farther gone than I thought you were. What kind of Christian blames God for his sin. The Holy Spirit doesn't lead us into sin, how foolish of you to suggest He does.

You are still insinuating that the song is sinful in and of itself. No one here is blaming GOd for anything, I'm sorry to say.

I have already shown how the lyrics of the aforementioned song were sinful. It should be obvious to you if you any wisdom that you should not be singing this song let alone using it as a tool for evangelism. You go even farther by saying that God directed you to use it.

You posted the lyrics of the song. As I said before, we used only the first part of the song of "You Don't Own Me." I am wondering what part of that song is sinful, unless we are confident that God's plan is for women to be slaves to men.

No doubt you performed the song well to a large audience of teenage girls, I can see you now...

We did. And guess what! (We danced to it too... but not suggestively!)

"Cause you are, my fire,
The one, desire,
Believe, when I say,
I want it that way

But we, are two worlds apart,
Can't reach to your heart,
When you say,
That, I want it that way....

Am I, your fire,
Your one, desire,
Yes I know, it's too late,
But I want it that way

Tell me why,
Ain't nothin' but a heartache,
Tell me why,
Ain't nothin' but a mistake,
Tell me why,
I never wanna hear you say,
I want it that way

Now I can see that we're falling apart,
>From the way that it used to be, Yeah,
No matter the distance,
I want you to know,
That deep down inside of me...

You are, my fire,
The one, desire,
You are
You are,
You are,
You are...

And what is expressly sinful about this song. It's quite neutral. A guy really likes this girl, but it's not going to work out. Hmmm...

Scott, you might be sensitive to the direction of the spirit but it's certainly not the Holy Spirit. One method of discernment I use is if you feel led to sin, thats usually what we call temptation. If you yield then you can't say "God honoured our obedience".

Sigh... There is still the burden of proof to show that the songs are sinful.

Proverbs 11:23 The DESIRE of the righteous is only good.

And our desire in using secular music was that the message of the Gospel would be heard and accepted. Sounds like a good desire to me.

Souls may have been saved that day in Germany, I pray that they were, that doesn't mean God approved of your method of evangelism it just means that He reached the lost in spite of you.

Great rhetoric, but ultimately empty.

I'll say it again, we must not do evil that good may come of it.

I agree.

I'll direct you again to 1Cor 1 as I did a few weeks ago. This is a perfect opportunity to apply this Scripture again.

v21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
v22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
v23 But we preach Christ crucified , unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.

And indeed, we preached Christ crucified. Don't misapply Scripture.

Here we see the apostle Paul faced with a predicament similar to your own. The Jews and the Greeks like the German youth are not interested in the Gospel, in fact it is a stumblingblock to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks.

We are totally depraved. No one is interested in the Gospel.

What does Paul do in this case? Does he give the Jews the miracles that they want to see, surely this will draw a large crowd. Does he engage in intellectual philosophical debate with the Greeks, speaking to them as they speak to each other, again he could be sure that he would be heard by large numbers by doing so. Paul resists the temptation to entertain or make a show of himself, he preaches the simple gospel message and we know that his ministry was richly blessed by the Lord, yes here we see real obedience in action, and the reward for this obedience.

You got all of that from that message? Wow! Your problem is that we see Paul in Acts engaging in intellectual debates! Another problem is that we see Paul performing miracles in Acts! That's the problem with your interpretation - and one that I do not think can be overcome. Paul did engage in intellectual debates, as he did in Athens, and people got saved! Paul demonstrated a miracle for a guy named Elymas, who also believed. Acts refutes your argument quite succinctly.

What are you to do, you're not sure, maybe it wouldn't hurt to give them a little of what they want, get the crowd in, then we'll get them with the Gospel. Sounds OK, we'll pray about it...

Not at all. We began with an open book. We asked "what does God want us to do on this trip?" In the past, whenever we went to Germany on a mission trip, we did concerts from city to city. We did what God led us to do.

Yes, we 'feel led' to take this path, never mind that its contrary to the Word of God, who says that the Holy Spirit never contradicts Himself? We'll go ahead anyway, anyhow I love the Backstreet Boys it'll be such a laugh.....

Again, it is not contrary to the Word of God. Your posting of I Corinthians 1 has been refuted by Paul himself.

Oh the young one's are professing faith, how the Lord has blessed our obedience, lets go on the Baptist Board and tell everyone how the Lord is using us.... etc etc etc.

Now, I sense a tinge of jealousy here, I think. This happened about three years ago. The example only came up when the quesion was asked.

Scott, you must think I get a kick out of accusing you of sin, do you think I have nothing else to do but sit here and tolerate your sarcasm, well perhaps you know how I feel now. Remember....I wouldn't be accusing you of sin if you didn't come on here and boast about it. Worse than that you are advising a Brother to follow your example, well pardon me but I think we have a duty to look out for one another and I appreciate that Joshua is giving this issue proper consideration, I'm just making sure he hears both sides of the argument.

Sarcasm? What sarcasm? I honestly want to know what your Scriptural support is for your beliefs. I cannot find it. Your accusation of sin has missed the mark (to make a pun on the work hamartia). It just doesn't fly. You might not agree with it, and that's fine. But to make it a sin issue is another instance all together.

It is my hope and prayer that Joshua turn to the Scriptures to find the Truth on this issue. Where Scripture is silent, we must also be silent. In other words, where Scripture is silent, we must rely upon our own convictions and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Would you sing the Backstreet Boys song in Church?

</font>[/QUOTE]Come to think of it, we did. That is where the students performed what they had learned during the week. Of course, that is also where the Gospel was preached afterwards.

 

[DanielFive]

Enough said. Proverbs 14:7-12.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
Enough said. Proverbs 14:7-12.

Stay away from a foolish man,
for you will not find knowledge on his lips.
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways,
but the folly of fools is deception.
Fools mock at making amends for sin,
but goodwill is found among the upright.
Each heart knows its own bitterness,
and no one else can share its joy.
The house of the wicked will be destroyed,
but the tent of the upright will flourish.
There is a way that seems right to a man,
but in the end it leads to death.


I'm not sure what you are saying here, enda. You stated that I could find Biblical support against my position throughout the Gospels and Acts. But then you couldn't provide a specific verse, even after I showed that Christ saved people who came to him for a variety of wants, including physical healing and even curiosity. You said that Zaccheus came to be physically healed - I showed that such a physical healing is not mentioned in the Bible (Luke 19 says nothing of the sort.)

And I continued to wait for some Scriptural support. Instead, you wax poetic on your being convinced of my sin, and how God does these things in spite of sin.

You then bring up Proverbs 11:23 - which does nothing to support your position or refutes mine. You then show I Corinthians 1:21-23, trying to show that Paul did not engage in certain activities. A simple reading of Acts disproved your application.

You then misrepresent the entire process that we used to plan our mission trip, creating a straw man argument.

And to add the final insult to injury, you use a proverb that insinates that what we used somehow will lead to death and that somehow I am a fool. (although whose, I am not sure.) You could not provide any biblical support to your position, so you resort in mud-slinging, perhaps justifying it by thinking, "It's in the Bible, so it's okay!"

What it boils down to is this:

1. God can use anything to bring a person to know Jesus Christ.

2. We live in a culture today that is as far away from Christ as we have ever seen in the last 2,000 years.

3. The non-Christian world has a very, very negative view on Christianity.

4. Paul and Christ both used many different methods to bring them to a true understanding of who God is and who they are.

5. Paul in no way condemns what we used to share the gospel.

6. Where Scripture is silent, we should also be silent. Your position is one that Scripture does not address.

7. Your final tactic of mud-slinging and name calling by insinuating that I am a fool, that I am leading others to death, and I am a deceiver is completely uncalled for, and appears to me to be a last resort.

Fortunately, my God is bigger than this - He will continue to use whatever He wills to change the hearts and lives of men.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by enda:
Enough said. Proverbs 14:7-12.

Stay away from a foolish man,
for you will not find knowledge on his lips.
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways,
but the folly of fools is deception.
Fools mock at making amends for sin,
but goodwill is found among the upright.
Each heart knows its own bitterness,
and no one else can share its joy.
The house of the wicked will be destroyed,
but the tent of the upright will flourish.
There is a way that seems right to a man,
but in the end it leads to death.


I'm not sure what you are saying here, enda. </font>[/QUOTE]I think he's trying to tell you that it's no use arguing with him.

I wonder if Enda knows how accurately he's describing himself with this verse.

The truth is, Scott, it really doesn't matter what you say or what verses of scripture you use. Enda sees us as his spiritual inferiors and he takes great delight in lording that over us.

If God used your trip to Germany, then thank God for that and quit allowing Enda to drag it through the mud.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
I think he's trying to tell you that it's no use arguing with him.

I wonder if Enda knows how accurately he's describing himself with this verse.

The truth is, Scott, it really doesn't matter what you say or what verses of scripture you use. Enda sees us as his spiritual inferiors and he takes great delight in lording that over us.

If God used your trip to Germany, then thank God for that and quit allowing Enda to drag it through the mud. [/QB]

Thanks for your encouragement. However, I wouldn't go as far to say that the passage is referring to enda. I think the people that this falls under are those who don't know Jesus Christ at all. True, we may disagree, and I may know that enda isn't correct on this issue, but I'm not ready to call anyone a fool.

Of course, I'm also not ready for anyone to call me a spiritual inferior. From what I have read of the Bible, we are all equal in the eyes of God - no one is really "spiritually superior" at all. My problem is that enda will say things and be unable to back it up using Scripture.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Thanks for your encouragement. However, I wouldn't go as far to say that the passage is referring to enda.

I don't think so, either. But I do think that his behavior at times mirrors that described in that passage.

He has been known to give prooftexts to support his manmade rules and then condemn anyone who doesn't agree with him.

I'm not ready to call anyone a fool.

I don't think he's a fool, but I think that to elevate one's opinion to the lengths he does his is foolish.

My problem is that enda will say things and be unable to back it up using Scripture.

Yes, he's done that to me, too.

 

[ColoradoFB]

Originally posted by enda:
I can see it now, twenty years down the line and we'll be singing Beatles songs in Church.

Although not a Beatles song, I cannot "Imagine" the following John Lennon lyrics being sung in a Baptist church . . .

"Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try.
No hell below us,
Above us only sky."

Nah...never happen.

 

[Travelsong]

Enda goes through the same cycle every thread. It starts out as a loving disagreement in Christ, moves on to a stern warning, after that a statement along the lines o "You are way out there", or "You are even more far gone than I thought", and then finally something similar to that last post which let's you know that you are hopelessly lost. It's quite fascinating to watch in a clinically detatched sort of way. I wouldn't take it personally Scott, enda's a good guy. He just needs to control his anger and learn to express himself better.

I'm glad the Lord is using you to reach the lost, and I pray that He continues to do so. Just don't sing that "You Don't Own Me" song to bring them in anymore

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
I'm glad the Lord is using you to reach the lost, and I pray that He continues to do so. Just don't sing that "You Don't Own Me" song to bring them in anymore

[/QB]

Point taken, but to be fair, I've got several of our high school girls in our youth group who do act like their boyfriends own them. Perhaps they need to be reminded who really owns us as bondservants in Christ.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Point taken, but to be fair, I've got several of our high school girls in our youth group who do act like their boyfriends own them. Perhaps they need to be reminded who really owns us as bondservants in Christ.

Which is exactly why they should be pointed to the Biblical principles of Christian relationships and not the secular worldview promoted by the song "You Don't Own Me". Teens are incredibly impressionable and shouldn't be encouraged to identify with the sentiments expressed in that song.

 

[DanielFive]

Mike,

Forget about attaching yourself to Scott, there is a world of difference between yourself and Scott.

I believe Scott to be sincere in his viewpoint, sincerely wrong, but sincere nonetheless.

I accept Travelsong's assessment of my weaknesses. I have no trouble admitting that I am a sinner, and freely admit that this is all too evident in some of my responses.

This debate has degenerated to where it is because I get frustrated when someone persists in defending an obvious sin and refuses to be persuaded of that sin.

I apologise to Scott, Joshua, Travelsong and anyone else who has taken offence to my style of debate.

I will start a new thread later today. I will, as Travelsong has pointed out, start off with 'a loving disagreement, in Christ' I will, by Gods grace, endeavour to go no further than this.

God Bless

Enda