Seeking Antagonists

[Darrell C]

Post #27: Abraham was under the New Covenant and his sins were forgiven even before the death of Jesus.

Sorry, no...Abraham was not privy to even the Promise of the New Covenant.

Just because the promises of God would all culminate in the same manner does not mean that revelation of this truth was in all Biblical Ages.

The New Covenant is not even promised until after the division of the Kingdom of Israel. The reason for the Promise of the New Covenant was because they did not keep the Covenant they were currently under:


Hebrews 8:7-8

King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


And we see the promise of completion in regards to sin and forgiveness of sin in that Promise as well:


12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


This is reiterated in Ch.10:


Hebrews 10:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


And we back up to see the difference between the sacrifices of the Law and that of Christ:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

And once more to show the contrast between the temporal and the Eternal:


Hebrews 9

King James Version (KJV)

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The Transgressions of the First Covenant (the Covenant of Law) had to be redeemed by the Blood of Christ.

Abraham will receive the fulfillment of the promises when he is raised from the dead.

This is true.

Doesn't mean he was under a Covenant unknown to himself.

He was under the Abrahamic Covenant.

The promises made to Abraham are not connected with the promise of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost and afterwards. Why mix the two?

They are connected, and it is actually I that am distinguishing between the Economies. It is you that are trying to impose the Promise of the Holy Ghost into Abraham's day.

Again, the promises made to Abraham were not, as we saw in the last post, disannulled by the Law. What God told Abraham...


Genesis 12

King James Version (KJV)

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


...would be fulfilled through Christ, but he did not know that.

This is why he had faith that if he sacrificed Isaac...God would have to raise him from the dead in order to fulfill that promise:


Hebrews 11:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.


And while we know Abraham was justified by faith, we also see that he did not receive the promises:


13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Because they were not made perfect/complete, which is a major thrust of Hebrews:


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


It was only when Christ established the New Covenant that these men were made perfect/complete:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The spirits of the Old Testament Saints were secure, because they were justified through faith in God, but, their transgression were not redeemed until Christ died for their sins.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Post #28: Abraham and David did receive remission of sins. Again why introduce “the Eternal indwelling of the Holy Spirit”? This is not the Biblical definition of the New Covenant.

It is not used as a "Biblical definition of the New Covenant," but is simply one of the promises of the New Covenant, as defined by Christ in John 4, as well as the implicit teachings of the New Testament that make it clear that the indwelling of God is eternal.

It is that indwelling which is the reconciliation of union between God and man, which was lost in Adam. That is the source of Life, because He Who is Life is in us.

Eternal Life is not a substance poured into a born again believer, it is God Himself. He is the Source.

Hence...


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


John 14:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


John 10:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The OT faithful did not receive temporary atonement by animal sacrifice.

They did. I might suggest a study on Atonement.

For example:


Leviticus 1:3-4

King James Version (KJV)

3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord.

4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.


Hebrews 9:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.




This too is a major theme in Hebrews, where the sacrifices of animals is contrasted with Christ's Sacrifice: they could not take away sins in a New Covenant context, which is one of completion.

That is why he writes...


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Again the contrast: Levitical Priests offered up the same sacrifices over and over; Christ...once.

And the effect of that Sacrifice applied to those sanctified in Him is said to be eternal here.

Same thing is said here:


Hebrews 10:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The animal sacrifices of themselves accomplished nothing.

They were the God prescribed means of atoning for sin. This is just a basic teaching in regards to the Law, and that teaching is contrasted by the Writer of Hebrews over and over.

Also by Paul, in regards to the Law as a whole:


Galatians 3:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


The Law afforded temporary atonement, which is why they were prescribed, but...the Law did not give life.

These sacrifices only looked forward to Christ’s sacrifice.

Doesn't change the fact that the Word of God makes it clear men were forgiven sin through them.

The concept begins as early as the Garden, where presumably an animal or animals died to "cover" Adam and Eve.

We see it also in Abel's sacrifice:


Genesis 4

King James Version (KJV)

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


Now contrast that to what was commanded by the Law:


Leviticus 4:35

King James Version (KJV)

35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.


That is the harsh reality of substitutionary sacrifice, and behind it is...

...death.

The animals died in the stead of the sinner, my friend, and that is precisely what Christ did for you and me.

Abraham and David were saved by faith not by ritual.

This is true, but that does not change the fact that the Word of God states they did not receive the promises, their transgressions had to be redeemed by the Blood of Christ, and that they died in that state.

And when we equate what they had in conflict with the clear Scripture that shows Christ's Work as new and superior to those economies...we diminish the Person and Work of Christ. I know people do not do this willingly, it is a result of failure to balance Scripture. The Book of Hebrews, as you note, is a Book I use often to point out these truths, and the reason is simply because that is what the Book is intended to do. The Hebrew people of that day were in a quandary due to the fact that they were legitimately in relationship with God through the First Covenant (Covenant of Law), and for them, to leave that foundational system was very troubling.

And what the writer means when he states...


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)


6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


...is that those who did not, as he commands, "go on unto perfection" (completion found in Christ), but offered up those sacrifices again...was that they were presenting the sacrifice which only pictured Christ's Sacrifice.

In other words, rather than embracing the truth of Christ's Complete Atonement, they were again offering up Christ in picture only.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

And getting short on time so just going to answer these briefly.

Again, it might be better just to pick one subject and thresh it out.

Post #29: The Disciples were at first in ignorance of the need for the death of Jesus, but Abraham and David had some understanding of this Genesis 22, Psalm 16, 22, 23.

The disciples were ignorant until Pentecost. Hence their question as to the Lord "restoring the Kingdom unto Israel" on the Day of Ascension.

Abraham and David did not have revealed to them the truth of the Cross either, though David prophesied of Christ.

Abraham was not temporarily atoned for by a sacrifice of an animal, but he was justified by faith, he was counted righteous, that is his sins were forgiven, when he believed in the promise concerning the seed Genesis 15:5-6.

This, again, is true, but, you are equating the righteousness of Abraham with the righteous standing afforded in Christ.


Genesis 15:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Here is another example of those counted righteous:


Luke 1

King James Version (KJV)


5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


One could be justified and counted righteous through obedience, but that doesn't mean they did not still need the Atonement of the Cross. To say they did would establish a mentality that there are, contrary to Scripture...more than one way to God.

Or in other words, one can be saved through Christ and...works. And we know that is not the case.

Paul makes it clear...


Romans 4:1

King James Version (KJV)

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?


...that in view is a temporal perspective, he does not deny all of his other teachings that demand one be saved through Christ, and that works and the Law could not bring life and righteousness from an eternal perspective.


Romans 4:24-25

King James Version (KJV)

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


Now, was Abraham and those, contrary to what the writer of Hebrews tells us in ch.11...saved in a different manner than we? Did he receive the promises of God, contrary to Hebrews?

In view here is an emphasis on faith, all believers of all Ages have always been justified by faith, but, we have to distinguish when the promises were received, and exactly what those promises were. They were remission of sins in completion, cleansing, a new spirit, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

These...


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


...are clearly what God would do at a future time, not something He was doing then.

This is the New Covenant. The Old Covenant did not take away sins.

Abraham was not even under the Old Covenant, which is the Covenant of Law.

And the "taking away of sins" refers to completion, and does not negate what is clearly taught in the Law, that atonement for sin was given through animal sacrifice.

What God forgives is forgiven, what God accounts as righteousness is accounted as righteousness.

That is true, but you will need to come to understand the difference between the temporal nature of the Old Testament Economies and the Eternal nature of the New Covenant Economy.

Again, an example would be Manna as compared to The Bread of Life. It would be the empowering ministry of the Holy Spirit as compared to the Eternal Indwelling, by which He would cause us to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments.

This plays an important role in properly understanding the Old Testament. If you view much of the Old Testament in an eternal perspective (righteousness, remission of sins, the Ministry of the Spirit, death, et cetera), and fail to see that the New Covenant establishes relationship in an eternal perspective, then you will miss what the New Testament is teaching us.

When the Children of Israel received manna they were physically sustained. When we receive Christ we are spiritually resurrected.

Again why state “There was no eternal indwelling of the Holy Ghost until Pentecost”? What has this got to do with Abraham and the New Covenant?

Not sure what I said because there is no quote, so this makes it difficult to answer directly.

However, that the Eternal Indwelling of God would only begin at Pentecost is clear when we understand New Testament concepts such as the new birth and Atonement through Christ. This is why the Book of Hebrews is key in understanding that contrast.

Abraham is not associated with the New Covenant except that the promises given him would be fulfilled in the New Covenant. Truly did the Seed come, and truly are all families of the earth blessed through that Seed.

Post #30: Abraham was not accounted righteous by the sacrifice of animals, so your statement and question is invalid.

You are blurring issues. I have never said Abraham was accounted righteous through animal sacrifice. This is something you conclude by taking my statements concerning atonement and imposing them in a general manner.

All believers have always been saved by grace through faith. However, Abraham did not have specific faith in the Cross of Christ which is revelation provided in this Age. He did have a general faith in God and for that time that was sufficient for righteousness to be accounted him, but that did not mean the Atonement was applied to him. That would not happen until Christ died.

And yet Abraham and David will be in the Kingdom because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is true, but does not mean that they were eternally forgiven when they died.

Again, that is what the writer means here:


Hebrews 9

King James Version (KJV)

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Only through Christ are men eternally redeemed.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

That is another reason why they will be in the grave until the return of Jesus, every man in his own order.

There is no Biblical justification for such a view.

I would agree their bodies will be, because I do not believe men will be glorified until the Rapture, and it is debated as to whether the Old Testament Saints are glorified at that time, but, their spirits are in Heaven with God.

The way into the Holiest was opened through Christ's Work on the Cross, which issue I spoke on in the first posts I responded to.

The passage you cite refers to glorification, which is the raising of the physical bodies of believers, and does not negate Biblical teaching concerning the spirits of men, which live on after physical death.

This is another example of imposing a physical mentality to all Scripture, which denies a very basic truth: that men have a spirit and a body.

And just to touch on this further, we see the fatalistic view of cessation of existence actually rebuked by the Lord. The Sadducees believed physical death was the end (that is why they were so sad, you see?), and tempted Christ only to be severely rebuked:


Matthew 22:28-30

King James Version (KJV)

28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


We see Paul address this issue here as well...


2 Corinthians 5:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


We see men in Heaven here:


Revelation 7:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


And I would point out that this takes place while the Tribulation is going on, and precedes the resurrections that take place at the end of the Tribulation.

The spirits of men maintain a conscious existence, they do no cease to exist until the resurrection.

Again you attempt to link the Comforter John 14-16 with Abraham and David. They are NOT connected.

Please show me how I did that. You will need to post what I said that gives you this impression. I have consistently distinguished between the Economies and maintained that the Comforter did not come until Pentecost, and have provided quite a bit of Scripture to substantiate that view.

David WILL receive “the sure mercies of David”, that is life from the dead and immortality through the Lord Jesus Christ.

He already has. Christ liberated Hades/Sheol of the Just at the Cross. For this reason He could tell the thief on the Cross "This day shall you be in Paradise (a Jewish euphemism for Hades/Sheol, which in Jewish tradition was believed to have two sides, one for the Just, and one for the Unjust, as illustrated by the Lord's teaching in Luke 16).

This, again, is what the Writer of Hebrews is speaking about when he speaks of Christ opening the way into the Holiest:


Hebrews 9:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


But again, this has been touched on already in earlier posts in this thread.

The transfiguration does not prove that Moses and Elijah were already spirit beings.

Why not?

It shows them still in existence and it fits with the Biblical Teaching about the spirit.

One possibility amongst many other suggestions, is that they could have been temporarily raised from the dead.

So present Scripture to show why such speculation should be considered reasonable.

God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. The Rich man and Lazarus did not cease to exist. Samuel was called up:


1 Samuel 28:11-18

King James Version (KJV)

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.


We see the dead spoken of as being conscious here:


Isaiah 14:9-12

King James Version (KJV)

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


The Bible denies cessation of existence, and as I have said before, equating the term "soul" to an immaterial aspect of man, rather than leaving it within the temporal framework of the Old Testament has led many to erroneously conclude on this matter, where that which is specific and explicit which denies cessation of existence or consciousness is clearly seen.

And I would ask you to explain why the Lord would use this concept in Luke 16 if it did not represent a Biblical Truth. The Lord did not use false concepts to teach.

One of our senior expositors has another suggestion.

Who is "our?"

And what is that suggestion?

Post #31: I reject the concept of Substitutionary death.

Then you would reject a basic Bible truth that can be seen throughout Scripture. Animals died to cover the sins of men before Christ, and that remission was not complete.

This is a wrong view of the animal sacrifices, and also Christ did not die as our substitute, but as our representative.

So tell me your view of animal sacrifice.

The concept of substitution does not agree with the Bible as it does not allow for forgiveness.

It does. You can address the Scripture already presented on this issue and we can take it from there if you like.

And again, there is a contrast between the temporal and temporary atonement of the Law and those sacrifices that went before them...and the completion brought through the Sacrifice of Christ.

Consider Job:


Job 1

King James Version (KJV)

4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.

5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.


Job offered up sacrifice on behalf of his children, and stood in the role of Priest. Job is thought to be the oldest Scripture available, and that he was a contemporary of Abraham. But we can pre-date Job with Abel's sacrifice, and see the Biblical pattern for substitutionary death and remission of sins through it.

Now see another contrast:


Hebrews 12:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

One question that may help my understanding of your perspective: Is the coming of the Comforter connected with the Holy Spirit Gifts – Prophecy, Healing, Speaking with Tongues etc?

Without question. Who do you see speaking in tongues prior to this, for example?

Were these gifts temporary?

While I am not a cessasionist, I do not see all of these gifts being utilized in the Church today. I do hear of occasions where people speak in known languages they have never heard, but those are rare occasions.

Perhaps if you could limit yourself to one or two Posts at a time, then I could answer with more detail in one Post, and then possibly we can make steady progress.

I will simply respond to everything you post to me. Again I suggest that you pick one topic and one post and address it in detail. This response has us backtracking because you have not addressed the points already raised and are again asserting the same objections already addressed.

Possibly only one or two subjects initially – your choice, but I like Abraham and David and justification by faith.

Justification by faith will not help us if you equate the justification of faith with eternal redemption through the Work of Christ.

We need to address the difference between what was available in the differing Economies.

Atonement for sin might be a good starting place, because that is an issue in which you have denied the Biblical Teaching of atonement through substitutionary death. Addressing this, if you can see that remission of sins was granted through these sacrifices, and how they are contrasted with the perfection/completion they lacked and which the Sacrifice of Christ established...might help you see the differences, and important making that distinction is.

Some OT passages are quoted or alluded to on numerous occasions in the NT. For example Genesis 1:26-27, 12:1-3, 13:14-15, ch.22, Psalm 8, 16,110, Isaiah 6, 42, 53, 55. All of these show that there is one consistent teaching in both OT and NT. Do these fit into your theology?

Kind regards
Trevor

Genesis 1:26-27

King James Version (KJV)

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Just listing verses without distinguishing the relevance won't help.

You say there "is one consistent teaching in both Testaments," yet do not distinguish what teaching you mean. I have already said Scripture is consistent in it's teaching, so the burden would be for you to show how my views are inconsistent and yours are not.

I have presented enough for you to be able to answer your own question, though, in regards to my Theology. Where we are going to differ, I believe, is in the differences between those under the New Covenant and all those that went before it was established. To impose in the Old Testament that which is clearly only fulfilled in the New is actually a common error among believers, and the reason why we have so many Christians trying to work their way to Heaven through works. They do not understand that the Covenant of Law is a Covenant that (1) was made with Israel, not the world, and (2) that the Covenant of Law is obsolete because the New has been established.

Again, perhaps pick a post of interest and try to address the Scripture and comments given, and again, if you need any help on learning how to use the quoting features just let me know. My goal is not to sway you in my own doctrine (though of course I believe it to be sound), but to also help you in your studies and in that way become a more effective witness for Christ in your forum efforts.

And now I have overstayed my time and neglected my worldly duties, lol, so see you at the next appointed time my friend. Thanks for the response.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Brother Darrell,

Thank you for spending so much time on this topic and laying it all out with solid dividing of the word of truth. I really don't see how anyone with a desire to get it right could refute your exegesis. Great work! You are definitely open to the Holy Spirit's teaching.

What an exciting time to be living in the time of the New Covenant fulfilled!! Sadly, so many don't see anything exciting about it. They just see the same old same old. They don't see the blessing of regeneration fulfilled in Christ as anything special. They believe it has been the same old, same old from the garden of Eden.

Sadly they unwittingly make Christ's ministry here on earth nothing Great or New to get excited about. 'Eh, nothing new, Christ has been regenerating people forever, so what? He really didn't have to actually die, be resurrected and be glorified for the New Covenant to actually begin.'

God bless! :thumbsup:

It is an exciting time and we know that the excitement will increase.

Thanks for the kind words and keep up the good work, brother Steaver.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is an exciting time and we know that the excitement will increase.

Thanks for the kind words and keep up the good work, brother Steaver.


God bless.

Couple of points here////

To especially the Apostle paul, the sign of the new covenant appears to be the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit now in every believer, something foretold in the Old One, but having to wait until New One to be accomplished...

And John saw the souls of those who were in heaven in revealtion, so how could be soul sleeping then?

 

[Darrell C]

Couple of points here////

To especially the Apostle paul, the sign of the new covenant appears to be the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit now in every believer, something foretold in the Old One, but having to wait until New One to be accomplished...

The Eternal Indwelling of the Spirit of God was foretold in the Old Testament and was not established until the New Covenant was ratified by the Death of Christ, He Returned, and then sent the Comforter:


John 14:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


The Comforter is the fulfillment of the Promise of God, and He did not come in that New Covenant Ministry until Pentecost.

We see the future fulfillment here as well:


John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



We see this here as well:


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


And consider this:


John 7:37-39

King James Version (KJV)

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


The Coming of the Comforter is the fulfillment of that promise, and if we equate His Ministry today, under New Covenant standards, with His Ministry under the Law and even prior to that, then we fail to recognize that He was not ministering in this manner and diminish the understanding of the New Covenant.

Truly the Holy Spirit has always ministered to men, however, when we consider Christ's teaching concerning His Work we see that Eternal Life was not bestowed, nor was Eternal Redemption:


John 6:51

King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.



There is a time in History that we can pinpoint when the Bread of Heaven came from Heaven, and that is when Christ came. There is a point in History where men could trust in the Work of the Cross, and that is when Christ died on the Cross. And there is a point in History when the Comforter came...that day is Pentecost.


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

We need to understand the magnitude of what Christ accomplished, and place the Law in the perspective that is Biblical, which is this: it was a shadow, a parable of the True, and not the true itself.

The sacrifices of the Law brought about atonement, but that atonement was not complete, it was not eternal.

The Holy Spirit empowered men for ministry in those days, but that is not the same as eternally indwelling believers, because standing between that reconciliation was the sin of man, and until Christ died in the stead of the sinner, those transgression remained in need of redemption.

And Christ has done that...for us. By His own Blood (death), and that Work was accomplished...alone.

And John saw the souls of those who were in heaven in revealtion, so how could be soul sleeping then?

They weren't. Soul Sleep is a damnable heresy, and one that has gained popularity in recent years, no longer a distinctive of a particular group.

It is surprising the number of people in denominations we might consider in large part orthodox who have bought into this doctrine. This, coupled with the ever increasingly popular trend toward a denial of Hell has led to the rising popularity of Annihilation as well.

And unless we can straighten out our own understanding of the Doctrines critical to balancing the Word of God, they will increasingly grow ever more popular.


God bless.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Darrell C,

I appreciate your responses. Again I am left with responding to 6 fairly large Posts. I have had a quick read, and there are again many subjects. Perhaps we could look at most of these eventually. In line with your suggestion I would like to consider first your Post #41 and the subject of Abraham and the New Covenant.

Post #27: Abraham was under the New Covenant and his sins were forgiven even before the death of Jesus.

Sorry, no...Abraham was not privy to even the Promise of the New Covenant.

Doesn't mean he was under a Covenant unknown to himself.
He was under the Abrahamic Covenant.

I suggest that the above defines our difference. I believe that the Abrahamic Covenant is the New Covenant.

In brief response to your quoting of Hebrews 8:7-8, 10:15-18, 10:1-4, 9:10-15, these are all comparing the Mosaic Covenant = the Old Covenant, with the Abrahamic Covenant = the New Covenant.

The following speak of the Abrahamic Covenant as being the New Covenant:
Galatians 3:15-18 (KJV): 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Romans 15:8 (KJV): Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.

Hebrews 6:11-15 (KJV): 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Darrell C]

Greetings again Darrell C,

I appreciate your responses. Again I am left with responding to 6 fairly large Posts. I have had a quick read, and there are again many subjects. Perhaps we could look at most of these eventually. In line with your suggestion I would like to consider first your Post #41 and the subject of Abraham and the New Covenant.

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
Post #27: Abraham was under the New Covenant and his sins were forgiven even before the death of Jesus.

Sorry, no...Abraham was not privy to even the Promise of the New Covenant.

Quote:
Doesn't mean he was under a Covenant unknown to himself.
He was under the Abrahamic Covenant.

I suggest that the above defines our difference. I believe that the Abrahamic Covenant is the New Covenant.

And that is understandable, seeing the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant were meant to be fulfilled in the New Covenant.

However, that does not make them the same Covenant.

Under the Abrahamic Covenant there are promises, and in the New Covenant there are promises. So show me the promises of the New Covenant in the Abrahamic.

Abraham did not have his sins eternally redeemed through the Blood of Christ at that time, Hebrews makes that clear. It was not until Christ died that the transgressions of even the First Covenant were redeemed, so we would not expect that God redeemed Abraham's transgressions but not those under the Law:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Secondly, we see here that Eternal Redemption was accomplished by Christ, and we can pinpoint that time of occurrence: when Christ died.

Not a couple thousand years before.

Third, if Abraham was under the New Covenant...why establish the Law?

We are told why...



Galatians 3:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Do you see the conflict in trying to impose Redemption in Christ...when Scripture at all times points to it being fulfilled at a later date?

You are saying that Abraham received the promises when Hebrews makes it clear he died not having received the promises.

You are saying that Abraham received the promises then the Lord established the First Covenant (Covenant of Law) because of sin.

In brief response to your quoting of Hebrews 8:7-8, 10:15-18, 10:1-4, 9:10-15, these are all comparing the Mosaic Covenant = the Old Covenant, with the Abrahamic Covenant = the New Covenant.

There is no comparison in Hebrews between the New and Abrahamic Covenant, but the Covenant of Law and the New.

And just as Galatians is not equating the Abrahamic with the New, nor denying that the New was established by Christ when He came, even so it is in Hebrews. They show the relationship with the New Covenant, but it does not make them identical Covenants.

The following speak of the Abrahamic Covenant as being the New Covenant:
Galatians 3:15-18 (KJV): 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

In view are the promises, not the Covenants themselves.

And again, the simple point is that a promise is not a promise after it has been fulfilled...it is a reality.

The point in this passage is not that the Abrahamic Covenant was the New Covenant, but that the promises of God to Abraham were not nullified by the establishment of the Law.

So what you are proposing is that God established the New Covenant, then the First Covenant, then re-established the New Covenant when Christ came.

Romans 15:8 (KJV): Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.

Again, note the word that is the focus: promises.

Not Covenant.

Christ confirmed the promises, meaning He validated that what God had promised came to be.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Hebrews 6:11-15 (KJV): 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. [/COLOR]

Kind regards
Trevor

He obtained the promise, that being, he did have a son and he did have many offspring.

But that does not mean he was under the New Covenant.

We know that because Christ is the Covenant:

Consider:


Isaiah 42:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


Now when did this happen?

The writer of Hebrews is exhorting his Hebrew brethren...to embrace the New Covenant. If they were already under the New Covenant that would not have been necessary, right?

Again...


Matthew 26:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.




When we partake of Communion, what do we remember? The death of Christ.


Hebrews 9:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Again, you have God establishing the New Covenant, and then...the Law?

If the Lord had established the New Covenant then, we would have an entirely different Bible, for what is revealed in the New Testament would have already transpired:


Hebrews 8:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


The reason why the New Covenant was promised was because men did not keep His Covenant (of Law). That Covenant was established because...of their sin.

Now if the completion that Christ brought when He died, arose, and returned to Heaven was in fact present in the Old Testament Economies...then as the Writer states here...then should no place have been sought for the Second (which speaks of rank rather than sequence).

Another aspect that will help you better understand this would be a study of atonement and the remission of sins under the Old Testament sacrifices, which were substitutionary deaths for the sake of the sinner. Under Old Testament Economies there is no time when remission of sins is complete, which is why the Writer points out the continual sacrifices and the continual services of the Levitical Priesthood:


Hebrews 9:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;



Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:




The basic truth taught in Scripture is that God made provision for the temporary covering of sin through vicarious death of animals. The most basic truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that God made provision for a complete remission of sins through the vicarious death of Christ.

The New Covenant and the promises made were not realized until that Covenant was established through the Blood of Christ, and to impose the realization of those promises conflicts with a number of passages I have shared which state this explicitly, so that there is no confusion on the part of the Bible Student.

Perfection, or Completion...comes only through relationship with God through the New Covenant. The Old Testament Saints mentioned in Hebrews 11 did not receive those promises. We can pinpoint where the Disciples of Christ received those promises...

...the Day of Pentecost.

And just as the Lord taught them (which they heard of Him), the Comforter came after He returned to Heaven, and not a moment before:


John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

We do not, as King David did, cry out "Lord...take not thy Spirit from me," because we have His Word that the indwelling of the Spirit of God is the down-payment on our salvation, and that Christ purchased us with His Blood (death):


2 Corinthians 5:5-8

King James Version (KJV)

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



Under Old Testament Economies men did well fear the Spirit of God departing, because the Spirit of God came upon men and empowered them for ministries such as Prophet, Priest, and King.

He does that same ministry today among the born again believers, but prior to that empowerment one must be Baptized with the Holy Ghost. Christ is the Baptizer.

Again, this is why it is called Eternal Redemption, Eternal Salvation.

And that is contrasted with those who were under the Covenants before the culmination and realization of the Promises of God.


God bless.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Darrell C,

I appreciate your two responses. Due to lack of time I will only answer a few things. Also I find some of your reasoning difficult and confusing.

And that is understandable, seeing the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant were meant to be fulfilled in the New Covenant.

However, that does not make them the same Covenant.

I believe they are the one Covenant, and this Covenant comprised many promises. The same word “covenant” is used concerning David:
2 Samuel 23:5 (KJV): 5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
Isaiah 55:1-3 (KJV): 1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. 3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Not only did God make a covenant with David, David’s salvation was wrapped up in this covenant. Now are you suggesting that there was one covenant with Abraham, another with David, and then the New Covenant through Jesus? Rather Jesus is the means whereby this one Covenant is confirmed, established, revealed in its fullness.

Now you say that the Covenant made with Abraham is not the New Covenant.
Galatians 3:16-17 (KJV): 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
But here Paul simply links the promises with the Covenant, and in effect uses these terms interchangeably. Also Paul does not distinguish this and say “the Abrahamic Covenant”, he simply calls the promises made to Abraham as “THE Covenant”.

He obtained the promise, that being, he did have a son and he did have many offspring.

But that does not mean he was under the New Covenant.

The comment that Paul makes concerning obtaining the promise is not talking of a fulfilled promise, such as the birth of Isaac. Paul is quoting from Genesis 22 where God swears by himself that Abraham would be blessed, that is the ultimate fulfillment of all the promises to Abraham..
Genesis 22:15-18 (KJV): 15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
In a sense Abraham was under probation until Genesis 22. Such a concept does not fit in with OSAS.

Consider our position in the following:
2 Peter 1:1-11 (KJV): 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I find it interesting in Luke’s record that we see the incipient institution of the Covenant, symbolised by the bread and the wine, and then Jesus promises the Disciples their involvement in Promises, and these have the elements of the promises to Abraham and David.
Luke 22:15-20 (KJV): 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament (or Covenant) in my blood, which is shed for you.
Luke 22:28-30 (KJV): 28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Darrell C]

Greetings again Darrell C,

I appreciate your two responses. Due to lack of time I will only answer a few things. Also I find some of your reasoning difficult and confusing.

I think the difficulty arises primarily through not addressing a number of points already raised, but respond however you feel you need to. There is no rule about how one responds, and as I said at the beginning, there are just a number of issues that time has to be spent on in order to thresh them out and see the big picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
And that is understandable, seeing the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant were meant to be fulfilled in the New Covenant.

However, that does not make them the same Covenant.

I believe they are the one Covenant, and this Covenant comprised many promises.

Again, the problem with trying to make them the same Covenant instead of simply recognizing that the Abrahamic Covenant was distinct to Abraham is that you would have to have the promises fulfilled in Abraham's day. Secondly, we look at the fact that the New Covenant is not only called new for the reason that it is new, but we see God, in His promise of the New Covenant speak about doing something different, and a primary issue that the New Covenant replaces is the vicarious death of animals replaced with the vicarious death of Christ.

Abraham was not in Covenant with God whereby his sin was covered by the Blood of Christ as we are today.

Third, we see, even in your own commentary concerning the New Covenant that it was at the time the New Covenant was established:

Rather Jesus is the means whereby this one Covenant is confirmed, established, revealed in its fullness.

Now I ask you, how can you equate the Abrahamic Covenant and the New if the New was not established.

Fourth, Christ is said to be the Mediator of the New Covenant, and the Person of Christ also has a beginning in time, that is, when God manifest in the flesh and came unto Man. I am not speaking of the Eternal Son, but the Messiah Himself, in that particular ministry (as contrasted with His ministry of Creation, for example).

Now I do agree that they work together, meaning that the promises made to Abraham are ultimately fulfilled in the New Covenant, and Israel as a Nation, for example, will receive the Land as promised to Abraham.

Those are just a few aspects which distinguish the Two Covenants, so please address them, or just one of them, so we can follow through. At this point you are not really addressing the points I am making. A couple I see as important would be atonement through vicarious sacrifice (which was all that was available to Abraham) and the prophetic nature of the Promises. If you will address the fact that Hebrews makes it clear they died not having received the promises, it might help to understand the prophetic nature of the promises.

The same word “covenant” is used concerning David:
2 Samuel 23:5 (KJV): 5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
Isaiah 55:1-3 (KJV): 1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. 3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

That does not change the fact that the New Covenant was not established until Christ died, was glorified, and returned to Heaven, His Work accomplished.

It is true that the salvation of these Old Testament Saints was as secure as ours is (and it is ironic you argue David's salvation yet deny salvation is eternal through Christ) but this is due to the grace of God, the same grace that I believe is bestowed upon, for example, babies murdered in the womb.

If you think that because it is said that David was under an everlasting Covenant here that this means it is the same Covenant, consider another covenant:


Leviticus 24:1-8

King James Version (KJV)

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually.

3 Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the Lord continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations.

4 He shall order the lamps upon the pure candlestick before the Lord continually.

5 And thou shalt take fine flour, and bake twelve cakes thereof: two tenth deals shall be in one cake.

6 And thou shalt set them in two rows, six on a row, upon the pure table before the Lord.

7 And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the Lord continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.


While it could be debated as to what "covenant" is in view here (and that is not really necessary to make this point), we see what is said to be an everlasting covenant. Whether in view is the service or in view is the Levitical Priesthood, we know that the Covenant of Law has been made obsolete.

This is within the framework of the Law, but in view is not the Covenant itself, and I doubt you would argue the Law is not in view. While the aspects within the framework of the Covenant are, without question, everlasting...the specific Covenant is not.

It is the same with the Abrahamic Covenant: all of the promises within the framework of the specific Covenant are everlasting, and although not fulfilled within that framework, they are fulfilled when the New Covenant reaches it's ultimate fulfillment, which will be in the Eternal State.

Another example of the difference and why we know that the Two Covenants are not the identical Covenants, but that the Abrahamic Covenant is a distinct Covenant not equated to the New, is how it was ratified (and I am going to present a longer passage than usual, but I encourage you to read it to see the point made):


Genesis 15:7-18

King James Version (KJV)

7 And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

8 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:


Now, a few points to consider:

1. The New Covenant was ratified by the Blood of Christ, not the ceremony held here;

2. The Abrahamic Covenant was made with Abraham specifically.

3. Abraham was asleep and played no active participation.

4. The features of this Covenant, while reaching into what God would promise under the New, held a physical and temporal quality (in other words the fulfillment in the Eternal State was not in view, but the physical land in it's fallen state, which is fulfilled when God brought Israel out of Egypt).

The Covenant of Law was ratified by the shedding of blood and a death, and so was the New Covenant.

But what ratified these Covenants are eternally different.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I would add just another aspect before going on to the next statements: the promise concerning Abraham's Seed was in regard to Christ, and again...we know when that promise was fulfilled, again showing the prophetic nature of the Promise and that it was not fulfilled in the day of Abraham, which precludes Abraham having received that Promise.

Not only did God make a covenant with David, David’s salvation was wrapped up in this covenant. Now are you suggesting that there was one covenant with Abraham, another with David, and then the New Covenant through Jesus?

Yes. That is why they are called by every Theologian the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.

However, you are actually closer to my view than most usually are, because while I do not equate them, they are all a part of God's ultimate Redemptive Plan, and we see that in Galatians 3. Not that they are the same Covenants which negate the distinct differences, but that they all work toward the ultimate promises God has progressively revealed and progressively bestowed.

Abraham did not receive the promises of David, and was not privy to the further revelation of a Son of David sitting on an eternal throne. David was not the Seed through Whom all families of the earth would be blessed.

But David was intrinsic to what God would reveal through Christ.

And it is a somewhat difficult topic, but on the other hand is simplistic.

Rather Jesus is the means whereby this one Covenant is confirmed, established, revealed in its fullness.

Agreed, for the most part, however, that does not mean that Abraham was under the New Covenant. He was under the Abrahamic Covenant. A comparison would be the vicarious deaths which atoned for sin. God provided this temporary means until Christ should make the Atonement, but we do not equate the temporal animal sacrifices with the Eternally salvific Sacrifice of Christ, just like we do not say that Abraham cutting a heifer, goat, and ram equates to Christ dying on the Cross.

Now you say that the Covenant made with Abraham is not the New Covenant.

Galatians 3:16-17 (KJV): 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
But here Paul simply links the promises with the Covenant, and in effect uses these terms interchangeably. Also Paul does not distinguish this and say “the Abrahamic Covenant”, he simply calls the promises made to Abraham as “THE Covenant”.

All this states is that the Abrahamic Covenant was not disannulled when God established the Covenant of Law. They weren't. It did not prevent God fulfilling His promises to Abraham and the world.

The reason he calls it "the" Covenant is not a point, it simply normal wording. If a particular promise was being discussed and called "the promise" it would not mean there is only one:


Galatians 3:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Which promise is in view? Does that make it mean that there is only one promise of God associated with the Abrahamic Covenant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
He obtained the promise, that being, he did have a son and he did have many offspring.

But that does not mean he was under the New Covenant.

The comment that Paul makes concerning obtaining the promise is not talking of a fulfilled promise, such as the birth of Isaac.

Ultimately it does, because Christ is the Seed, unbeknownst to Abraham.

You said...

Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
Hebrews 6:11-15 (KJV): 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Kind regards
Trevor[/COLOR]

In view is the promise of many offspring, but the ultimate offspring is first Christ, The Seed, but we also consider the spiritual offspring of Abraham, those who are children through faith.

Paul is quoting from Genesis 22 where God swears by himself that Abraham would be blessed, that is the ultimate fulfillment of all the promises to Abraham..

Not just Abraham, but all families of the earth, which in light of the establishment of the Covenant of Law, which was exclusive to Israel, we can say without question the Abrahamic Covenant is not the New Covenant. As posted before, Christ would be a Covenant unto the Gentiles (hence all families of the earth).


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Genesis 22:15-18 (KJV): 15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

In view we can say are two sons, Isaac and Christ. The ultimate fulfillment would be the spiritual offspring, which are not a result of procreation, but Christ's Work and faith.

In a sense Abraham was under probation until Genesis 22. Such a concept does not fit in with OSAS.

I might agree with that, seeing that men did not go into the "Holiest" (God's presence) at death, however, the fatal flaw in using a concept like "probation" is that Abraham was justified by faith, and while he had to await his sin being eternally redeemed through Christ's death, his salvation was as secure as any born again believer who trusts Christ in this Age.

After Abraham's death there was no possibility in Hades/Sheol that he might somehow become "unjustified." When a man is declared just...that is it. This would preclude any sort of "probationary" concept, that is simply not a Biblical Teaching.

Consider our position in the following:
2 Peter 1:1-11 (KJV): 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

If you want to debate Eternal Security and Eternal Salvation, we can, but it is doubtful you will understand if you do not first understand the significance of what Christ has actually accomplished through His Work.

You say Abraham was on "probation," so please give me Scripture that would support such a view. Show how Abraham stood in danger of Hell after being declared just and righteous through faith.

That is a view that actually denies Abraham's standing with God.

I find it interesting in Luke’s record that we see the incipient institution of the Covenant, symbolised by the bread and the wine,

How can you call it incipient if you think it existed in Abraham's day?

and then Jesus promises the Disciples their involvement in Promises, and these have the elements of the promises to Abraham and David.

Luke 22:15-20 (KJV): 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament (or Covenant) in my blood, which is shed for you.

Where do you see Abraham and David mentioned? Where do they have privilege of knowledge of the Millennial Kingdom? Where do they trust in the Cross of Christ? Where do they receive the Eternal Indwelling of God (which would be impossible in a probationary state, I would think, seeing that the indwelling of God is the earnest of our salvation in Christ, and promises fulfillment of the Promises of God)?

Luke 22:28-30 (KJV): 28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Kind regards
Trevor

Will there be judgment in the Eternal State, the ultimate Kingdom the Promises of God reveal?

In all, I have seen nothing that equates the Abrahamic Covenant with the New, and no address of a great many points I have brought to the table. I do appreciate the response, though, and hope that an address of the points made in this post will help us to further thresh this out.

God bless.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Darrell, (Part 1 of 2)

In all, I have seen nothing that equates the Abrahamic Covenant with the New

We seem to still have some differences on the subject of the covenant. Perhaps we could make better progress by first considering the early promises made to Abraham:
Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV): 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
One word that recurs is the word “bless”. Not only did God promise that he would bless Abraham, Abraham would also be a source of blessing to others. Also there would be some division, some would bless Abraham, others would oppose him or curse him. But ultimately, as if to bring a finality and completion to God’s purpose in the earth:
“in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed”.

An additional promise is made to Abraham concerning the land:
Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

The Psalmist also takes up the word “bless”, and this is applied to the individual who meditates upon the word of God. In poetical language, such a person is destined to become a tree planted by rivers of water, while the wicked will be like chaff that the wind blows away.
Psalm 1:1-6 (KJV): 1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Here is a similar outcome to the promise to Abraham, where some are blessed, while the wicked are cursed. But the ultimate picture is the establishment of the righteous in the earth, and by using the figure of a fruitful tree by rivers of water we have a similar picture to the Garden of Eden restored.

The Psalmist in Psalm 8 speaks in terms of the Edenic creation, but he is also prophetically speaking of the future when the earth will be restored and blessed in Christ. The end result of the process spoken of in Psalm 8 is also similar to that found in Numbers and Habakkuk:
Psalm 8:9 (KJV): O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
Habakkuk 2:14 (KJV): For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Darrell, (Part 2 of 2)

Jesus also takes up the theme of blessing:
Matthew 5:3-9 (KJV): 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
This is an expansion of the blessing in the promises to Abraham, and gives more detail than Psalm 1, as it gives the character of those who will be blessed. Their reward is also given, “theirs is the kingdom of heaven” and “they shall inherit the earth”, thus equating these terms. This shows that the kingdom of heaven is the future kingdom of God upon the earth.

Paul takes up the promise given in Genesis 12:3 and states that this is a summary of the gospel:
Galatians 3:7-9 (KJV): 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

He also speaks further of the promises made to Abraham, and he identifies the seed as Christ:
Galatians 3:7-9 (KJV): 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

For example, the promise of the land in Genesis 13:14-15 quoted above in Part 1 of 2 is to be given to Abraham and his seed.
Galatians 3:16 (KJV): Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Note the similar phrase in both “and to thy seed”.

Paul then also states that by faith in these promises both Jew and Gentile will be included in these promises and inheritance. By means of faith and baptism they will be “in Christ” and thus included as part of the Abrahamic seed:
Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV): 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

After the death and resurrection of Jesus the full details of the gospel were now revealed and Luke summarises the gospel as comprising two aspects, or “the things concerning”:
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

This gospel of God is centred in Christ as the Son of God. This gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe this gospel, and the righteousness of God is revealed in and through this gospel.
Romans 1:1-4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Thus the gospel is the same gospel revealed to Abraham in a summary form and the detail of this gospel has been further revealed. This gospel has now been confirmed by the sacrifice and blood of Christ, that is by the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ. By means of this one gospel God will bless all nations and the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
In all, I have seen nothing that equates the Abrahamic Covenant with the New

Greetings again Darrell, (Part 1 of 2)
We seem to still have some differences on the subject of the covenant. Perhaps we could make better progress by first considering the early promises made to Abraham:
Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV): 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
One word that recurs is the word “bless”. Not only did God promise that he would bless Abraham, Abraham would also be a source of blessing to others. Also there would be some division, some would bless Abraham, others would oppose him or curse him. But ultimately, as if to bring a finality and completion to God’s purpose in the earth:
“in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed”.

An additional promise is made to Abraham concerning the land:
Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

The Psalmist also takes up the word “bless”, and this is applied to the individual who meditates upon the word of God. In poetical language, such a person is destined to become a tree planted by rivers of water, while the wicked will be like chaff that the wind blows away.
Psalm 1:1-6 (KJV): 1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Here is a similar outcome to the promise to Abraham, where some are blessed, while the wicked are cursed. But the ultimate picture is the establishment of the righteous in the earth, and by using the figure of a fruitful tree by rivers of water we have a similar picture to the Garden of Eden restored.

The Psalmist in Psalm 8 speaks in terms of the Edenic creation, but he is also prophetically speaking of the future when the earth will be restored and blessed in Christ. The end result of the process spoken of in Psalm 8 is also similar to that found in Numbers and Habakkuk:
Psalm 8:9 (KJV): O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
Habakkuk 2:14 (KJV): For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Kind regards
Trevor

This is again a neglect of the points I have raised, and still does not equate the Abrahamic Covenant with the New.

I will address only one statement in this post...

“in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed”.


...and ask, were all families of the earth blessed in Abraham's day?

The obvious answer is no, because the fulfillment of this promise comes through Christ establishing the New Covenant which was unique and separate from the Abrahamic Covenant.

We know that because Gentile Inclusion, which began under the New Covenant, was simply not the case prior to the Mystery being unveiled. Prophesied in the Old Testament, fulfilled under the Covenant established by Christ. The Covenant of Law, which is also a unique and distinct Covenant, was made with Israel, not the World. The New Covenant was made that all families of the earth could be blessed through relationship restored between God and Man. That restoration includes the remission of sins in completion as opposed to the temporary remission of sins garnered through vicarious animal sacrifice (which is an issue you have not addressed to this point).

Consider:


Colossians 1:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Also consider:


Ephesians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


The singular truth to consider is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ should not be equated to the revelation given unto men in prior Ages. We see that clearly stated numerous times, and if we ignore it will alter our view in many areas.

Here is another:


Romans 16:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


There is simply no way to impose that into an Old Testament context apart from the fact that it was prophesied. While we can look at the revelation of the prophecy and understand it in a New Covenant/Testament context, they could not. This is why Israel expected temporal restoration, rather than the spiritual restoration Christ effected.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Greetings again Darrell, (Part 2 of 2)

Jesus also takes up the theme of blessing:
Matthew 5:3-9 (KJV): 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
This is an expansion of the blessing in the promises to Abraham, and gives more detail than Psalm 1, as it gives the character of those who will be blessed. Their reward is also given, “theirs is the kingdom of heaven” and “they shall inherit the earth”, thus equating these terms. This shows that the kingdom of heaven is the future kingdom of God upon the earth.

Paul takes up the promise given in Genesis 12:3 and states that this is a summary of the gospel:
Galatians 3:7-9 (KJV): 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

He also speaks further of the promises made to Abraham, and he identifies the seed as Christ:
Galatians 3:7-9 (KJV): 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

For example, the promise of the land in Genesis 13:14-15 quoted above in Part 1 of 2 is to be given to Abraham and his seed.
Galatians 3:16 (KJV): Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Note the similar phrase in both “and to thy seed”.

Paul then also states that by faith in these promises both Jew and Gentile will be included in these promises and inheritance. By means of faith and baptism they will be “in Christ” and thus included as part of the Abrahamic seed:
Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV): 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

After the death and resurrection of Jesus the full details of the gospel were now revealed and Luke summarises the gospel as comprising two aspects, or “the things concerning”:
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

This gospel of God is centred in Christ as the Son of God. This gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe this gospel, and the righteousness of God is revealed in and through this gospel.
Romans 1:1-4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Thus the gospel is the same gospel revealed to Abraham in a summary form and the detail of this gospel has been further revealed. This gospel has now been confirmed by the sacrifice and blood of Christ, that is by the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ. By means of this one gospel God will bless all nations and the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD.

Kind regards
Trevor

In view is not whether there are two different Gospels, but when the Gospel of Christ became known, and the promises fulfilled.

I have addressed these issues, and several more which I have pointed out as relevant to the discussion, and they have not been addressed.

We cannot progress in the discussion if the points raised are not addressed.

I will just comment on this point that there is no "summary" revealed to Abraham of the Gospel of Christ. Abraham did not understand that when he said...


Genesis 22:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.


...that he prophesied of the truth that God would indeed provide Himself as the Sacrifice for sins.

And this is what I usually run into when debating certain issues. There is a tendency for a discussion to go after the manner of ...

...I raise a point...

...my antagonist says but what about...

...I address that one...

...my antagonist says but what about...


Again, we cannot progress in discussion and thresh these things out if you avoid the points raised.

Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and He ratified the New Covenant with His Blood/Death. There is a point in time when Christ came, and to impose His establishing (in the sense of beginning, putting into effect, rather than prophesying about what would take place) into the Old Testament is something that no Theologian does, because the witness of the New Testament denies such a position as credible.

As I said, we are in agreement that the Abrahamic Covenant was fulfilled through the New Covenant, and that it relates to the same promise, but the problem right now is trying to have the Promises fulfilled before they were.


God bless.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Darrell,

I appreciate your two responses and some of your frustration. In some areas we are reasonably close, but in others we differ. My understanding is that various promises were made to Abraham and to the extent that he could understand them in his day he not only believed them, but they had an all-consuming effect upon his mind, emotions and way of life. Some of these promises were fulfilled in his day, for example the promise that initially he would be the father of the seed, and then the further revelation that both he and Sarah would have a son in their old age. Many more of these promises relate to the future, and required the death and resurrection of Christ and his future return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

Where we seem to disagree, possibly in part only if we understood each other’s language and mindset, is that I believe that when Abraham was justified by faith, that this is equivalent to his sins being forgiven. Contrary to what you seem to claim, his sins were not temporarily forgiven because he offered up a substitutionary animal for atonement, but simply because he believed what God had promised, and this faith was accounted as righteousness.

Please excuse my proviso here, because I do not believe in OSAS, but I believe in probation after initial salvation. If Abraham died immediately after this declaration by God accounting his faith as righteousness, or in other words his sins were forgiven, then he would be guaranteed a place in the future Kingdom of God upon the earth. Yes and I agree, he will only be resurrected and given this blessing because of the atoning work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My only clarification, that might help our impasse on this aspect, is that God is not limited by time. He knows the end from the beginning. He knew that Christ would die and be resurrected and save mankind before and after his sacrifice. So I will say again, God forgave Abraham his sins, then and there, and what God forgives, God forgives. What God justifies or accounts as righteousness, is accounted as righteousness. There is one system of salvation, justification by faith, before and after the sacrifice of Christ. There is no temporary forgiveness based upon substitutionary animals.

This is again a neglect of the points I have raised, and still does not equate the Abrahamic Covenant with the New.

I will address only one statement in this post...
“in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed”.
...and ask, were all families of the earth blessed in Abraham's day?

The obvious answer is no, because the fulfillment of this promise comes through Christ establishing the New Covenant which was unique and separate from the Abrahamic Covenant.

The promise and hence prophecy of the blessing of the nations was to be future to Abraham’s day. My immediate picture of this blessing is Isaiah 2:1-4, or the similar Micah 4:1-8 and Zechariah 14. I do not believe the New Covenant was unique and separate from the Abrahamic Covenant, even in this detail because (if you want to demand some separation of the “two Covenants” even though I claim them to be one) they both speak of the future Millenium. Although the Gentiles have had the gospel preached to them in a greater sense since the Apostles, the terms of Genesis 12:3 “in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” find their greatest fulfillment in the Millenium. I believe this term “all families” is future. At present God is taking out a few individuals out of the nations, but he is not blessing the totality of these nations. It is only a remnant. The term only really applies to the future Kingdom.

Concerning the various quotations concerning the “mystery” of the New Covenant, my perspective is perhaps different. The sequence of events is
1. The promises to Abraham, his justification by faith (please allow me to say this is the giving to Abraham the New Covenant).
2. The exodus of Israel from Egypt and the giving of the Law, termed in the NT the “Old Covenant”.
3. The death and resurrection of Jesus, confirming the New Covenant (please allow me to say that this is also the Abrahamic Covenant).
4. The preaching of the gospel, firstly to the Jews, then the Samaritans, then the Gentiles such as the Ethiopian Eunuch, the Centurion. The preaching to the Jews and Gentiles in Antioch Acts 13. As the Jews mostly rejected the gospel here at Antioch, Paul started to preach more to the Gentiles.
5. My understanding of the “mystery” is this very feature, that salvation was to be now individual, mainly directed to the Gentiles. And remarkably this has proceeded as we have seen for the last 2000 years and Romans 11 is relevant to this situation concerning the blindness of Israel.
6. And finally as this work progressed and the Jews became hardened against the gospel, and because they had crucified God’s Son, the Old Covenant and the Temple were overthrown in AD70.

The concept that Israel would be put aside at the time of the Apostles was a “mystery”, that is this sequence of events was unknown in general, as the Jews and even the early disciples such as Peter thought that the Jewish exclusiveness and separation would continue. Please consider the Cornelius event and also the Letter to the Galatians.

Kind regards
Trevor