Seeking Counsel for Pastor

I agree with Tater here. It seems to me that many are misunderstanding the fact that Pastors cannot handle all situations, and that God can and does use others who are more qualified by saying that we are not saying that antyhing goes and that pastoral counsel is not worthy, it is very worthy. If a pastor is not properly trained and prepared for some situations, they can cause a lot of damage.

 

First, and perhaps most people don't know this, the "professionals" are guessing most of the time. As one Christian psychiatrist told me a few years ago, "In diseases of the brain, the year is 1820...?" There are no reliable blood or genetic tests (yet) for chemical imbalances, and the diagnostic tool (the DSM IV) is basically a mechanism for observing behaviors and going from there. The simple proof for the unscientific and "guesswork" nature of psychology is to encounter people who have seen several "professionals" and who are got different diagnoses for the same set of symptoms.

Second, anyone who we see with physical symptoms of any kind, we refer to a medical doctor; since most insurance companies offer limited or no coverage for psychiatric visits, the people usually have to go to an Internal Medicine doctor, and an increasing number of them are prescribing drugs for various kinds of mental problems. If you ask a medical or psychological professional how they can distinguish between "clinical" depression and depression brought on by a host of different problems, you will get various answers, none of them very definitive.

Third, most people with significant psychological problems who are on disability get stuck with "counselors" whose ideas and methodology range from merely ineffectual to truly bizarre. One young man we know was told by his state-provided "professional" that he had bad Karma from an earlier life and he needed to work off his Karma.

This perspective, which we refer to in the movement as Biblical Counseling, is growing daily. Westminster Theological Seminary, Reformed Theological Seminary, The Southern Baptist Seminary, Southeastern Baptist Seminary, Southwestern Baptist Seminary, and The Master's Seminary (John MacArthur's school) are just a few of the schools who have totally jettisoned "psychology" for Biblical Counseling methodology over the past few years.

The Pioneer of the movement was and is Jay Adams (Competent to Counsel, The Biblical Counselor's Manual, and several other books), Larry Crabb, Wayne Mack, Bill Hines, and Howard Eyrich (the last two I have studied under) are some of the leaders. Paige Patterson (Southwestern), Danny Akin (Southeastern), and Al Mohler (Southern) are some of the academic leaders in the movement.

For 1900 years, God's people have sat down with God's man and God's book and have been healed by God's Spirit. It still works.

As for training, there are lots of opportunities available for pastors and pastoral counselors to be trained. The primary need is spiritual maturity, extensive Biblical knowledge, and a steady insight into the theology of people (Biblical Anthropology). The biggest problem for most pastors is time. We serve several churches whose pastors use us in difficult cases. God has seen fit to grant much healing in the lives of people who we have helped.

 

I would disagree that if the Pastor can counsel then anyone in the congregation can. The two are not equivalent. For one the pastor has a call of God on his life. This equips the Pastor for what God has called him to do. Second the Bible is sufficient for all matters in life including rape, incest, and any family difficulties.

As far as psychotic behaviors, medical doctors are trained to recognize these and address them with appropriate medications. As far as counseling in those matters the word of God is all sufficient, the Holy Ghost is always at work, and the man called of God can do that which God has called him to do.

Even in the most sensitive of situations the Word of God is sufficient. Prayer works all the time. And we should spend more time relying on God. Psychology is man made philosophy.

 

I see, so you're saying you've had more specialized biblical training in counceling while studying under two of the above councelers.

With mixed success, they believe most were ill because someone had sinned then there was the lunatic who was put in chains. i won't go into the burning of witches etc... I do believe prayer will partition the throne but I too believe God often works through medical knowledge which he has given to mankind.

I think this is what most are getting at, most Pastors are not specially trained to go beyond listening, praying and giving advice. Yes, we shoud lean more on the Lord and not our own understandings but I believe God has blessed us with a professional community. Many of them are Christians also. Don't pastors refer members of their Church to you?

 

All will die. So not all are healed. Paul was not healed of his malady.

People need to understand that life is not always nice and not always fair but God will see them through it into eternity. People often need hope. Most of the time I think more good is done by a godly good close friend than a counselor.

A few years ago a woman who was in a Bible study I was leading was complaining about her husband who was not there that night. One of the ladies had just lost her husband in the church building two weeks earlier. She said to the complaining lady, "It must be nice just to have husband." The complaints immediately stopped and she has changed her attitude a lot. What that lady did with one sentence no amount of counseling would have helped. That lady is a different person today. Sometimes we need to have people around us who will shake us into reality and other times we need those who will give us hope.

 

I often use the "shock" or cold reality treatment also. Nothing bugs me more than a person who has eyes and just won't see. God is blessing but we so often overlook our blessings.

I loved your story, can you clarify the above sentence?

 

If I cannot trust a Pastor over me, then I should not be under him.

I realize this is the OP - I didn't read all of the following posts.

Further, unless the Pastor feels he cannot counsel in this area well, I believe that members should be able to go to their pastor for counsel in all areas.

For example, I have been asked to counsel in a demonic oppression. Even though I never practiced the dark arts, I feel competent and able in this area. As I have mentioned in previous threads - there are other reasons for counseling that I would refer the Church member to a more competent pastor for. And yes, in those areas I still feel that way.

Not sure how my response will fit in with the others.

 

What training?

So, what do you call proper training? Psychotherapy? There are probably over 600 different and conflicting therapies practiced in this country today. Which do you choose? Do they work? How do you know?

Could you please specify what type of training is necessary?

 

Which therapy would you recommend?

I would agree with most of the Major's list except for Larry Crabb. He is simply a secular psychologist clothed in religious garb. Oh, he is a Christian but his psychology is nothing more than reworked secular theories to make them palable for Christian consumption. He has jumped from theory to theory so that no one, including Larry, knows what he believes.

And we could say with "mixed success" for every medical doctor as well because not every patient gets better--some get worse or die. Also, it is easier to judge success in the medical field where there is some objective standard for measurement. In psychology today, we are reduced to surveys which ask, "Do you feel that your therapy helped you?"

BTW, lunatics did get well and return to normal life in the old days. Today, they are doomed to a lifetime of perpetual therapy. In fact, some of the older methods are coming back into vogue such as EMT (electromotive therapy) which is nothing more than the old shock treatments.

Finally, I wonder what you are referring to as medical knowledge? Psychological problems are not necessarily medical or organic. It's more software than hardware.

So, what special training do pastors need? Psychotherapy? Psychoanalysis? The best training for any kind of Biblical training is to know the Word of God. It has the answers but it does not necessarily mean that man will apply them. Furthermore, I don't see how you can say that God has blessed us with a professional community. This so-called professional community, if you are talking about secular psychotherapy, is irrevocably and foundational opposed to Scriptural teaching. We cannot make it Christian and Biblical by stripping out the most objectionable parts and inserting a few Bible verses.

Furthermore, this so-called professional community is bankrupt. They can't and don't solve the problems. They may give a little immediate relief by helping us feel better about the problem or provide a halo effect of expectation for awhile. Most people who enter psychotherapy stay in therapy for a lifetime with their same problems flirting from therapy to therapy and from therapist to therapist. Just look at the case records.

Overall, I hear you saying in generality that there must be professionals out there who have the answers. IMHO, this is the naive faith in the cult of the expert. Someone, the experts, must have the answers. Well, which of the 600+ competing therapies is the right one? Can you tell me specifically which therapy to choose? Primeal scream? Theophostic? Psychoanalyst? You don't want to choose the wrong one.

 

What do therapists do?

What do you think therapists do? Some, the nondirective types, don't even give advice. So, they give a big name to the problem and look wise. What do they specifically do that is more of a benefit than pastoral counseling? Please elaborate. Be specific--no generalities. What are the pastors missing?

Furthermore, what do therapists know of Scripture? If the Bible is about life and living, how can secular therapists be more qualified than a pastor? The pastor, who thoroughly knows the Word of God, is the most eminently qualified person to counsel. He has the answers.

 

My BA is in Psychology and about half of my masters was geared towards a degree in counseling preparing me to get a professional counseling lisence. I was studying at a seminary and the thinking was that pastors are not equipped to counsel in all situations, so professional counseling is a rising ministry as more and more churches either need to refer their counseling to someone or hire an on-staff counselor.

In the course of these studies, I learned a few things:

1) Professional counseling is a large umbrella. Degees range from MA's to PhD's. Because the money is better more an more social workers are getting into the field and professional schools are openining up with a new PsyD degree as well. In most states people need some form of license, but there are always ways around that. Professional Counseling thrives off of a medical model for their industry. This way, they can easily make the comparison to doctors. However, where it lacks is in the training and the standards for license.

2) Professional Counseling doesn't work. There are some success stories, but they are outwieghed by the fact that for every person who feels as though counseling has helped them there is one who feels it did nothing, and one who feels they are worse off. I have heard a professional counselor say of pastoral counseling, "If I have a toothache, I'll pray...I'll pray on my way to the dentist." Fine, but the dentist enjoys more than a 33% success rate. Further, 80% of counselees feel better when they make their first appointment. In other words, just the idea of "I'm getting help" has a lot of value. Factor that in, and its hard to say that the professional counselor is doing much of anything.

3) Here's the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was taught that counseling techniques depend greatly on how much the counselor believes in them. This made me think. What are these techniques? Most counselors with any training at all are using Rogerian techniques and that is humanist to the core. I thought, "If I have to put my faith in something, why is it in a humanist technique?"

Pastors, we are told to refer, refer, refer. Why? Could it be that we do for free what others are paid a lot of money for?

Is there a reason to refer? Sure. If the problem is medical, the person should see a doctor. In fact, if someone is talking to you about a chronic problem, a good physical is always in order. The professional counselor is no more equipped than you to deal with a medical problem.

What abou psychosis? Professional Counselors are not equipped for this either. Again, a medical doctor is in order.

I would strongly reccomend "The Christian Counselor's Manual" by Jay Adams. Pastors, take back the part of your ministry that so many are telling you that you are not equipped for. You are.

 

Pastor,

I agree (didn't read all the posts because of time).

If a pastor tells a woman to stay with her husband even though he is beating her . . . and the guy beats the wife and kids again until they _____ (fill it in), he has added to the problem and not taken away from the problem.

I know that there are areas of counseling that I am not prepared for . . . in a previous thread my character as a pastor was called into question for admitting that . . . oh well, I can actually face and admit my enemies.

On the other hand, I do not think that psychology has any of the answers - they throw a dart at a dart board and get lucky most of the time.

God bless.

 

OK, I may be a little late for the good discussion you all had last night.... but here is my input...


A wise pastor will know his limitations. Yes there are a lot of things we can handle, but sometimes we also need to use other available resources...like other pastors that have more experience, or even good therapists that we personally know that we can trust.

Before I would send someone to a professional, I would have to know them personally.... I would definately not just pick a name from the yellow pages....I do know a couple in the Charleston/ Huntington WV area that I would strongly recommend... I have even had one of my sons to them, and they were great.

Sometimes we as pastors become too close to the situation, and need someone that can be objective.

Other times the best thing we can do for someone is to refer them to someone else that we know can help them.

Someone said this above: "I would strongly reccomend "The Christian Counselor's Manual" by Jay Adams." I echo that sentiment.. There are a lot of good practical stuff in there. It has helped me tremendously.

If I can help someone, great, I will do my best with the Lord's help.
But when I feel that the Lord is directing me to direct them somewhere else, I will..... It won't hurt my ego a bit.

After all, it is not about us pastors... it is about getting our sheep help when they need it. Right?

 

The pastors who refer to us are men compentent to counsel, but they (a) find counseling to be almost a conflict of interest, and (b) they don't have adequate time to devote 20 hours a week to counseling, along with their other duties.

The specialized training I had was done after I had been counseling for a long time, and was intended to sharpen my skills.

 

Shell,

I hope I didn't give you the impression that I think you aren't doing what your pastor says. I do think that oftentimes thats a problem, but you are the only one who can know if you are implementing any solution he's given you.

May I suggest you ask for some weekly counselling from/with his wife? It could be that what you are seeing as a lack of caring, is possibly overload. You need someone to talk to, and he (as most men) hear the problem, think of a solution and can sort of expect that to be the end of it.....ya know?

Have you looked into getting the RU discipleship course anymore? I think of you every now and then and wonder how you are. I hope you can look into that. I believe it would be an absolute wonder for you.

In the least, go to the RU website and join their forum board.

 

I'm praying for you Shell as you appear to be struggling with the decisions at this junction. I know clamming up is not the answer and if you are not finding success with your Pastor, perhaps you should consider outside. Run the idea by him.

Father, your child seeks your love at this junction in life. Guide her past these times and lead her with thy divine will. For we know your touch can make crooked roads strait and rough roads smooth. Touch her now master, and make strait that which is not and make smooth that which is rough. Order her steps in your word that she may never cross this path again.

Heal her until she is whole and lend your ear unto her heart. Don't let any of her cries for help go unheard. Let her know she is loved. We ask these blessings in the name of your Son Jesus, AMEN...

 

Shell

I lift you up to the Father for His blessing and His special touch.

I think that you should print this off and take it to your pastor . . . If your pastor is not able to help you in counseling, then you may need to find an outside counselor . . .

God be with you!

Wayne

 

Very few pastors are very well trained to handle issues such as yours. There are Christian counselors who deal with those kind of issues. Good counseling requires a lot time and follow through by the counselor. When I was pastoring, I handled minor cases of counseling. Even though I have had some training I also sent the people to counselors who I knew could help them better. Partly the reason I sent them to someone else is because counseling takes a lot of time. Also when people pay to get help they suddenly become more motivated.

One of the first things I would often ask is if the person had to a doctor to get a physical so that any medical condition would be ruled out.

On a personal note: There was a time when it seemed like I was angry and irritable all the time and did not know what was wrong. I decided to get a physical and found out why. Since I got help with my physical condition life has been incredibly different. I am back to my old self and have a lot more energy.