Seeking God

[Van]

In a recently closed thread, the claim was made that no one seeks God unless drawn by the Father. John 6:44 says no one can come to Me (Christ) unless drawn by the Father. The question then arises, why did the OT Saints have to wait in Abraham's bosom, until the New Covenant was inaugurated. If they had "come to Me" (Christ) they would have been made perfect with the blood of Christ. So under the OT, saints came to "God" but not to the future Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. Thus scripture teaches people can seek God without being drawn to Jesus.

Can they seek God without God revealing Himself? Of course not. Can anyone be made perfect without being drawn to Christ? Of course not, that is why the OT Saints had to wait to be made perfect. Can people seek God through works rather than faith? Yes, Romans 9. Does that obtain salvation? Nope

So seeking God, even the God of the OT, does not require being drawn to Christ. But obtaining salvation, eternal life with God, does require not only being drawn (attracted) by the Father, but having their faith, as worthless as it may be, credited by God as righteousness.

Does God allow people to seek God and put their trust in Christ? Yes, usually, but not always. Romans 11 teaches God does harden the hearts of some people for His purpose. Ditto for Judas who was not allowed to "come to Jesus." (John 6:65)

 

[KenH]

Noah was saved, as wicked as ungodly as he was(which every human being is by nature and in practice), by God's sovereign grace, just anyone ever saved is.

Genesis 6:5-8 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (emphasis mine)


Abraham looked forward to and was glad to see Christ.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” (emphasis mine)


Old Testament saints certainly looked forward and saw Christ.

Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (emphasis mine)


Salvation has always been by the imputation of the sins of God's elect to Christ and the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness to God's elect. Thus, even though the elect are ungodly, by nature and in practice, they are made perfect as Christ said that they must be - Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.; Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

 

[KenH]

The Old Testament saints knew about Christ as soon as Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden and God explained to Adam, Even and the serpent what the repercussions would be.

Genesis 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (emphasis mine)

 

[AustinC]

The OP should read Hebrews. There we see that the saints of old were justified by faith in the Promise (Abrahamic Covenant, not Mosaic Covenant), which is Jesus, the one who atoned for their sins just as Jesus atoned for all who believe.
Hebrews 11:13,16,39-40
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.

Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

 

[37818]

All OT appearances of God was the Son. John 1:18.

 

[Reformed1689]

Does God allow people to seek God and put their trust in Christ? Yes, usually,

Where do you come up with "usually"?

 

[Van]

In the OT, the promise of the Messiah is there for the believers to believe in. Some of the Apostles were looking for the Messiah so the promise and not the person was known before Christ's public ministry began. And yes "heaven" was promised but the OT saints did not receive that promise, but had to wait until Christ's death.

 

[Van]

Where do you come up with "usually"?

You edited out the answer given in the quoted sentence after usually, ...
Now you ask for what you deleted. Obviously posted for obfuscation...

 

[Reformed1689]

In the OT, the promise of the Messiah is there for the believers to believe in. Some of the Apostles were looking for the Messiah so the promise and not the person was known before Christ's public ministry began.

But the Messiah and Christ are the same person so what is the difference? I don't get your distinction here.

 

[Reformed1689]

You edited out the answer given in the quoted sentence after usually, ...
Now you ask for what you deleted. Obviously posted for obfuscation...

Nowhere in your answer does it show that USUALLY God draws people to Christ.

 

[Van]

But the Messiah and Christ are the same person so what is the difference? I don't get your distinction here.

Yet another question but no contribution to the topic.

 

[Van]

Nowhere in your answer does it show that USUALLY God draws people to Christ.

Show me where I said God usually draws. I said God usually "allows" people to seek God.

 

[agedman]

Show me where I said God usually draws. I said God usually "allows" people to seek God.

Van,

Is there anyone found in the OT that can be shown as seeking God prior to God calling them?
Adam? Nope
Noah? Nope
Abraham? Nope
Moses? Nope
Joshua? Nope
Any Judges? Nope
Samuel? Nope
Saul, David, or Solomon? Nope
How about one of the prophets? Nope

It is not until the Birth we actually read of folks actively seeking, but even then they were prompted by sign and wonders to do so.

 

[Van]

Van,

Is there anyone found in the OT that can be shown as seeking God prior to God calling them? SNIP

Who said people seek God before God's revelation? No one.

2 Chronicles 15:4
“But in their distress they turned to the LORD God of Israel, and they sought Him, and He let them find Him.

2 Chronicles 30:18-20
For Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the good LORD pardon

everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though not according to the purification rules of the sanctuary.”

So the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people.

 

[agedman]

Who said people seek God before God's revelation? No one.

2 Chronicles 15:4
“But in their distress they turned to the LORD God of Israel, and they sought Him, and He let them find Him.

Your verse quote leaves out the context.

this isn’t what the people did, it is a portion of the message being delivered.

1Now the Spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded. 2So he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The LORD is with you when you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you. 3For many years Israel has been without the true God, without a priest to instruct them, and without the law. 4But in their distress they turned to the LORD, the God of Israel, and sought Him, and He was found by them. 5In those days there was no safety for travelers, because the residents of the lands had many conflicts. 6Nation was crushed by nation, and city by city, for God afflicted them with all kinds of adversity. 7But as for you, be strong; do not be discouraged, for your work will be rewarded.”
​

I do not see your post as rising to the challenge and refuting what I presented.

I neglected to add this bit from the previous chapter which is why the Lord spoke in terms He did that I posted.

2And Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God. 3He removed the foreign altars and high places, shattered the sacred pillars, and chopped down the Asherah poles. 4He commanded the people of Judah to seek the LORD, the God of their fathers, and to observe the law and the commandments. 5He also removed the high places and incense altars from all the cities of Judah, and under him the kingdom was at peace.​

 

[Van]

Good Grief, the people turned to God. The people sought Him. This is what the people did.
Personal incredulity is a fallacious argument.
Nothing said alters the truth of scripture, the OT Saints sought God by faith based on their knowledge of God from His revelation.
The OT is full of examples of people seeking God, and others choosing not to seek God. Just read it folks...
The notion that no one ever seeks God is a complete work of fiction, based on reading into the text what is not in the text. No one seeks God all the time, because we sin, so we are all under sin because no one seeks after God (all the time!!).

 

[Van]

Deu 4:29
“But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

Clearly the capacity to seek God is present throughout scripture. Every prayer given in the OT tells us of someone or some group seeking God!

Psalms 17:1
A Prayer of David.
Hear a just cause, LORD, give Your attention to my cry;
Listen to my prayer, which is not from deceitful lips.

 

[AustinC]

Deu 4:29
“But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

Clearly the capacity to seek God is present throughout scripture. Every prayer given in the OT tells us of someone or some group seeking God!

Psalms 17:1
A Prayer of David.
Hear a just cause, LORD, give Your attention to my cry;
Listen to my prayer, which is not from deceitful lips.

Question: Is the book of Deuteronomy addressing the chosen, elect, covenant people of God...or is it addressing pagans?

 

[agedman]

Good Grief, the people turned to God. The people sought Him. This is what the people did.
Personal incredulity is a fallacious argument.
Nothing said alters the truth of scripture, the OT Saints sought God by faith based on their knowledge of God from His revelation.
The OT is full of examples of people seeking God, and others choosing not to seek God. Just read it folks...
The notion that no one ever seeks God is a complete work of fiction, based on reading into the text what is not in the text. No one seeks God all the time, because we sin, so we are all under sin because no one seeks after God (all the time!!).

Would you seek God if the ruler threatened you with death if you did not?

13And whoever would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, would be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.
​

Folks seek God AFTER God first deals with them and sends a messenger. This is shown in the context of 2 Chronicles 14 and 15.

Is your own bias is preventing you from acknowledging the true?

We are not “under sin” but the unbeliever is a slave in bondage to the desires of the flesh, as the Scriptures state:

15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone should love the world, the love of the Father is not in him, 16because all that is in the world, the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the vaunting of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17And the world is passing away, and its desire; but the one doing the will of God abides to the age.
​

All I ask was for one example of someone seeking God without first God delivering a message, calling personally upon them, or in some manner impressing the need upon them.

YOU claim “The OT is full of examples of people seeking God, and others choosing not to seek God.”.

You haven’t given even one.

The closest perhaps could be the account of Hanna. However, God has first closed her womb, given her one to taunt her, and yet she and her husband continued to worship. Therefore, that one doesn’t count does it?

 

[Van]

Why do you think the usual Calvinists are posting nonsense. Did I refer to God's revelation. Yes. Did a Calvinist claim I did not acknowledge this truth? Yes. On and on folks, falsehood after falsehood.

What is all their fuss about? Calvinism claims no one ever seeks God until "regenerated." But they have redefined "regenerated" to mean the "enablement of Irresistible Grace" such that a person having "Total Spiritual Inability" could after "Calvinism's bogus Regeneration" seek God and trust in Christ. However regeneration refers to being made alive together with Christ. No one was actually biblically "regenerated" until after Christ arose, thus He is the first born, and we are actually "regenerated" when we are made alive as a new creation when God places us spiritually into Christ, for all in Christ will be made alive.

So biblically, none of the OT Saints were "regenerated" (made alive) until after Christ arose as the first born from the dead. So how did they seek God without being "regenerated?" Because they could because "Total Spiritual Inability" is a Calvinist fiction.
Thus the stream of posts to claim the OT Saints that sought God had been "regenerated" according to their bogus redefinition.